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a group that functions well basically

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can behave selfishly

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with respect to other groups you haven't

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pro you haven't solved the problem of

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selfishness you just elevated it

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to the level of the group where it can

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take place with more destructive force

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than

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professor david sloane wilson is one of

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the world's foremost kanyasenti's in

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evolutionary theory

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he's almost single-handedly responsible

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for the resurgence of the idea of group

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selection

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at least he's responsible for the

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popularization of it versus individual

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selection

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dominant paradigm of the 20th century

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although he's made some amendments to

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group selection and now calls it

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multi-level

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selection theory as usual these are

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often technically dense and i expect

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that there's a certain level of

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familiarity with the material

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or the terminology such as existential

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security

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victor huang's innovation oasis as it

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relates to evolutionary theory and then

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if for whatever reason you don't know

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the material you don't know the

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terminology then i expect that you'll

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look it up because

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you're far brighter than most podcasts

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give you credit for

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this conversation was filmed

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approximately a year and a half ago way

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before kovid

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for a documentary called better left

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unsaid which is all about

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when does the left go too far

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politically speaking because it seems

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like

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the right it's fairly clear when the

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right goes too far this documentary is

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slated for release in 2021 and if you

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want to follow it the links are in the

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description

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generally speaking if there's a product

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of mine like i helped create it and it's

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more than six months old

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then i'm abjectly mortified by it

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because i can only see the flaws in it i

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wasn't happy with the quality of it so i

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took it down

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but many of you have emailed me as well

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as reviewing some of the comments it

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seems like

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plenty of you enjoyed it a significant

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amount

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maybe it's one of the better

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conversations out there with david

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sloane wilson so

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hopefully you enjoy it just as much now

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there's a bit of extra footage that i've

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included

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enjoy hello professor thank you

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thank you for coming i appreciate you

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inviting us into your home

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no problem my pleasure all right let's

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get straight to it

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do you think that we're losing values in

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the west

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i think we're in a crisis condition so

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that's a loss of something

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but whether we call that loss of values

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i think is

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are probably too simplistic we still

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have values of course

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and i think that uh those values appear

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to be threatened

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and so uh that's why we're in in uh

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in crisis mode but i think to go further

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than that

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we need to probe questions such as

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the west what is it what does it

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represent what values does it represent

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are we talking about democracy are we

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enlightenment values are we talking

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about individuals

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such concepts of freedom and so on

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what can be said i think is that the

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western system

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is in some sense not working and it's

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ceasing to become an exemplar for

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others and so that is very concerning

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can you explain what are some of the

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values that you see that are

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essential that are going away i'm just

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going to move this guy this will fly

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yeah right disrupting your full thought

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right

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um oh it's still it likes you likes you

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it's group selected

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let's see if we we can try to terminate

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it if we need to but uh

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not very that's not very group selected

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over here

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oh yes it is um so

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that question was what again okay what

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are these values so you mentioned that

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we're losing

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some values maybe it's democracy opposed

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maybe maybe it's enlightenment values

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what do you see are the values that when

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we lose them we're put in a

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crisis mode as you put it

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well at some point i know we're going to

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get to multi-level

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selection which has to do with basically

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how do we envision society do we

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envision it expansively such as

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the whole world are we nationalistic do

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we view it

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in a more factional sense our party

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first for example

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or perhaps even smaller and

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a lot of what we mean by the left and

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the right actually

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means our choice of unit

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the right nowadays is restricting itself

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to some tribe basically

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and and the so-called left is

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you might say more expansive more global

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in its thinking but even globalism

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itself is problematic because

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i think that there's types of globalism

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and the type of globalism that's

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represented by capitalism

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global capitalism is one which

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is not working it's global but it's not

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working for the benefit

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of everyone so i think that's part of

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the crisis is that capitalism which is

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the

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is

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become deeply problematic when we talk

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about such things as socialism and

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capitalism

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um these are the modes of political

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philosophy in the in the past

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there's a sense in which neither one

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works

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and we need to come upon something

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that's new that

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does work and i believe that

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evolutionary theory provides the key

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to a form of governance which can work

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at the global scale and all smaller

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scales that's part of what multi-level

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selection is about can you explain the

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difference between multi-level selection

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and

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so let's talk about the difference

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between multi-level selection and

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and group selection and in the process

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let's

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define for viewers who are not

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already knowledgeable about this kind of

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stuff what some of the issues

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are at stake and so going all the way

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back to darwin darwin thought

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that his theory could explain all

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aspects of design

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that had been attributed to a creator

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everything that works has a functional

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basis

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he thought that had been attributed to

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creator

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uh he thought he could explain with his

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theory of natural selection

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but upon further thought he came against

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a dilemma

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which is if you think of anything that

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we associate with morality

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if i asked you to define the morally

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perfect individual

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you would use adjectives such as

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altruistic loving giving honest

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brave all of these are

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things that benefit others and one

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society

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as a whole and often involve some cost

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to the moral individual

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and so when darwin contemplated the

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moral individual

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compared to his or her opposite the

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immoral individual

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has the advantage

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in the struggle for existence there's

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something associated with all forms of

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goodness

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that's vulnerable to all forms of

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evil and so darwin could not explain

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everything associated with virtue as a

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product of natural

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selection unless he added something and

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that something was to think about

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natural selection

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at a slightly larger scale so while

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altruism is vulnerable to selfishness

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within any given social group

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it's also the case that a group of

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altruists a group of virtuous

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people will robustly outcompete a group

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of

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people who cannot cohere and so now we

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do have a process of natural selection

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that can favor

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virtue but it's a process that takes

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place at the level of

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groups not at the level of competition

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among individuals within groups

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and so there's group selection is two

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level selection

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it looks at what's what happens within

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groups competition among individuals

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within groups

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and then what happens with competitions

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among groups

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in some kind of multi-group population

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a group inhabited by many tribes as

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darwin

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talked about it so you could call that

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two level selection

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now multi-level selection simply expands

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that it goes up and down

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going down we can talk about genes

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within individual

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so a gene can succeed at the expense of

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other genes within the same

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organism we call that cancer

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and there's many examples of that kind

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of selfish gene

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or genes can can evolve by cooperating

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with other genes in the organism in

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which case

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natural selection is taking place at the

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level of organisms out competing other

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organisms so it's the same dynamic that

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i just described

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except it's genes in organisms then we

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get to organisms in groups

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and do you know there's groups of groups

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of groups so we could talk about

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ecosystems

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for example our microbiomes it turns out

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that you are not just

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a homogenous collection of genes you are

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a planet

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inhabited by many thousands of of

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microbial species numbering in the

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trillions

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of individuals and when you're selected

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when you

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than others in part it's due not to your

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genes but to your

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microbiome and the good microbiomes are

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being selected

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along with the good genes and they're

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interacting

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with uh each other in other words

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what we think of as individual selection

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is actually group selection when you

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think about the collection of

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it turns out the microbiomes is a game

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changer because

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before we were kind of on to that

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concept of microbiomes

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it seemed that we were a

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relatively uniform collection of of

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genes we start out as a single egg

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and then those cells divide and divide

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and divide but they all have the same

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genes

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well not really because actually

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mutations are occurring with every

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cell division and by the time you get to

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my age do you know

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you know i'm a very diverse entity

291
00:10:12,949 --> 00:10:11,760
at this point even my genes the extra

292
00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:12,959
mutations

293
00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:15,760
have resulted in all sorts of of uh

294
00:10:18,790 --> 00:10:17,200
they're called neoplasms but they're

295
00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:18,800
basically cell lines that have

296
00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:22,640
proliferated more than the normal

297
00:10:26,470 --> 00:10:25,920
uh cell lines and that's what cancers

298
00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:26,480
are based

299
00:10:33,269 --> 00:10:29,760
basically so but anyhow

300
00:10:37,670 --> 00:10:33,279
so for the most part except for that

301
00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:37,680
then all of our all of our genes are

302
00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:39,760
are identical in all of our cells so

303
00:10:43,829 --> 00:10:41,360
that makes us a pretty potent

304
00:10:45,110 --> 00:10:43,839
unit of selection that made individual

305
00:10:48,389 --> 00:10:45,120
level selection

306
00:10:50,949 --> 00:10:48,399
to be a very very strong uh

307
00:10:53,030 --> 00:10:50,959
force okay well it still is i mean

308
00:10:55,910 --> 00:10:53,040
nothing has changed except the

309
00:10:57,670 --> 00:10:55,920
the realization that uh we're not such

310
00:11:00,470 --> 00:10:57,680
homogeneous entities after all we're

311
00:11:02,069 --> 00:11:00,480
some kind of ecosystem

312
00:11:04,150 --> 00:11:02,079
and it's actually hard to know who's

313
00:11:07,509 --> 00:11:04,160
calling the shots so

314
00:11:09,110 --> 00:11:07,519
you know this is um one of the very

315
00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:09,120
interesting developments that have taken

316
00:11:14,069 --> 00:11:10,560
place over the last

317
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:14,079
30 years which have revolutionized uh

318
00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:15,760
the study of uh

319
00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:17,680
evolution that's just one that we'll be

320
00:11:20,710 --> 00:11:19,279
covering during this conversation

321
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:20,720
you mentioned that the difference

322
00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:22,560
between the right and the left is which

323
00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:25,920
level of group should we select for

324
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:27,760
can you give me some examples something

325
00:11:32,949 --> 00:11:29,519
else about the right and the left

326
00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:32,959
the the standard definition of the right

327
00:11:37,829 --> 00:11:33,920
and the left is

328
00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:37,839
conservative progressive

329
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:41,120
keeping the old ways or doing something

330
00:11:47,269 --> 00:11:43,760
new that's the standard definition

331
00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:47,279
if you go back 30 years ago

332
00:11:51,670 --> 00:11:49,440
then the debates would not be about

333
00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:51,680
levels everyone would be an american the

334
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:52,560
question is

335
00:11:56,150 --> 00:11:54,720
what should america do or what should

336
00:11:58,550 --> 00:11:56,160
the world do should we

337
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:58,560
stick to the old ways or should we do

338
00:12:05,110 --> 00:11:59,760
something new

339
00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:05,120
and so this um this fragmentation

340
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:08,160
of social identities is something which

341
00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:09,360
i think

342
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:11,600
is you might even question whether it

343
00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:13,600
falls along

344
00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:17,040
left right lines i think to an extent it

345
00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:18,000
would but

346
00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:20,160
when you look at the left for example

347
00:12:23,750 --> 00:12:22,320
and identity politics and so on then

348
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:23,760
what you find is

349
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:26,079
also a fragmentation of social

350
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:28,399
identities it's along different lines

351
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:31,440
but it's still you know lgbt or

352
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:38,150
all these various interest groups

353
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:39,600
that uh or you might say social

354
00:12:42,629 --> 00:12:41,519
identities in which you identity

355
00:12:44,069 --> 00:12:42,639
we do have to do something about this

356
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:44,079
fly don't we yeah we can't get rid of it

357
00:12:46,230 --> 00:12:45,680
but don't worry we can get rid of it

358
00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:46,240
actually

359
00:12:49,750 --> 00:12:48,399
we can't yeah hold on to spin it can i

360
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:49,760
get up yeah sure

361
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:51,760
yeah i have actually multiple ways of

362
00:12:54,560 --> 00:13:00,150
demonetized instantly

363
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:02,230
you were defining what identity politics

364
00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:04,160
is and then you were about to say what

365
00:13:06,710 --> 00:13:05,839
the problems were can we get back to

366
00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:06,720
defining what

367
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:08,800
identity politics is to people who are

368
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:09,839
unfamiliar

369
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:11,600
and you said something interesting which

370
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:13,200
is that it doesn't seem like it's the

371
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:13,680
left

372
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:15,360
and i also want you to explain what do

373
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:16,800
you mean by it doesn't fall on the left

374
00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:19,200
right spectrum identity politics

375
00:13:25,110 --> 00:13:22,720
okay so identity politics

376
00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:25,120
is when a person has a very strong

377
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:27,040
social identity

378
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:30,320
that trumps other identities

379
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:32,399
actually we all have many identities one

380
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:33,920
thing you can say about our species

381
00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:35,360
which stretches back to the very

382
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:36,560
beginning

383
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:38,720
is that people have always functioned in

384
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:41,279
multiple groupings

385
00:13:44,629 --> 00:13:42,800
back in the old days it was called

386
00:13:46,829 --> 00:13:44,639
fission fusion

387
00:13:50,069 --> 00:13:46,839
societies i'm talking about the

388
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:50,079
hunter-gatherer our ancestral

389
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:51,839
environments we might be in family

390
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:53,600
groups we might be in hunting groups we

391
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:55,199
might be in gathering groups

392
00:14:02,629 --> 00:13:59,519
we might gather in tribes always we do

393
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:02,639
things in different

394
00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:04,240
groupings and do you know we're so good

395
00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:07,199
at that that we can adopt the identity

396
00:14:10,389 --> 00:14:08,880
of that grouping when i go to church

397
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:10,399
then i'm adopting a certain set of

398
00:14:14,629 --> 00:14:11,519
values and

399
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:14,639
norms if then i go bowling i'll there'll

400
00:14:18,150 --> 00:14:15,600
be another

401
00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:18,160
set if i'm gonna go to church if uh no

402
00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:19,839
no i'm not religious at all

403
00:14:23,189 --> 00:14:21,920
if i'm uh if i'm in the military then

404
00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:23,199
that will be

405
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:26,560
uh something else and so uh

406
00:14:30,389 --> 00:14:29,279
we always have had multiple identities

407
00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:30,399
and must

408
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:33,279
because we live in so many different

409
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:35,600
contexts but when we talk about identity

410
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:38,880
politics then a particular identity

411
00:14:43,910 --> 00:14:42,000
sort of trumps the others and

412
00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:43,920
when that identity is a relatively

413
00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:45,839
narrow identity

414
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:48,959
such as i don't identify myself as a

415
00:14:56,829 --> 00:14:52,480
as a white american or

416
00:14:59,910 --> 00:14:56,839
a lgbt or a

417
00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:59,920
democrat uh whatever if that's my

418
00:15:03,670 --> 00:15:00,959
primary

419
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:03,680
identity then it's very easy to see

420
00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:04,560
other

421
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:07,519
well that basically creates an us and

422
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:08,639
separates the us from

423
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:11,040
them and very little good can come of

424
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:12,320
that okay

425
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:13,680
here's something interesting one you

426
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:15,360
said that it was a narrow

427
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:18,000
identity i want to know why is some

428
00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:19,199
people who

429
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:21,040
pride themselves as being gay or pride

430
00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:22,560
themselves as being black or

431
00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:23,680
pride themselves as being white would

432
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:25,600
say that's not narrow at all why are you

433
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:26,880
calling it narrow so i want to know why

434
00:15:30,629 --> 00:15:27,839
are you calling it narrow

435
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:30,639
and second you said that it's us versus

436
00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:31,920
them but

437
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:33,279
as far as i know and you can correct me

438
00:15:37,749 --> 00:15:35,120
if i'm wrong in group selection group

439
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,759
selection works when the group

440
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:39,360
pressures are higher than the individual

441
00:15:43,189 --> 00:15:41,440
pressures for selection but this

442
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:43,199
this sounds like us versus them is good

443
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:44,880
for group selection

444
00:15:50,629 --> 00:15:48,480
small scale

445
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:50,639
but part of the dynamic of multi-level

446
00:15:55,749 --> 00:15:53,600
selection is that when i talked about

447
00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:55,759
selfishness within groups being bad for

448
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:56,800
the group

449
00:15:59,910 --> 00:15:58,320
and the need for group selection for the

450
00:16:03,509 --> 00:15:59,920
group to function well

451
00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:03,519
that gets repeated up the multi-level

452
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:05,360
hierarchy so a group that functions well

453
00:16:09,829 --> 00:16:07,360
basically can behave selfishly

454
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:09,839
with respect to other groups you haven't

455
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:11,360
pro you haven't solved the problem of

456
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:13,519
selfishness you just elevated it

457
00:16:17,189 --> 00:16:15,600
to the level of the group where it can

458
00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:17,199
take place with more destructive force

459
00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:18,160
than

460
00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:22,079
if your primary identity

461
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:24,800
is x and that's what you're most eager

462
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:25,839
to preserve

463
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:29,040
and to advance then that can cause you

464
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:30,720
to become opposed

465
00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:33,600
to other identities and now you're back

466
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:35,680
into a conflictual

467
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:38,720
situation the only solution to that is

468
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:41,040
to have a primary identity

469
00:16:45,749 --> 00:16:43,680
which is global ultimately global that's

470
00:16:48,310 --> 00:16:45,759
why at the end of the day

471
00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:48,320
this speaks to the need of creating a

472
00:16:51,829 --> 00:16:49,360
whole earth ethic

473
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:51,839
basically our group our primary group

474
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:52,880
should be

475
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:55,199
the whole earth and our smaller

476
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:56,880
identities don't disappear

477
00:17:01,110 --> 00:16:59,279
but they need to be coordinated for the

478
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:01,120
benefit of the largest

479
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:04,480
entity if our main entity the thing we

480
00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:06,640
care most about is anything smaller than

481
00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:07,199
that

482
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:09,520
and trump is a great example my america

483
00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:15,029
uh and of course he'd have to add on any

484
00:17:18,309 --> 00:17:16,799
kind of world stage that if every nation

485
00:17:21,110 --> 00:17:18,319
tries to put themselves first then that

486
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:21,120
will work out well for the whole planet

487
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:23,120
he has to say that or otherwise he'd

488
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:24,880
just be immoral

489
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:28,720
on the world uh state but the fact is

490
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:31,440
is that if you have a smaller identity

491
00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:33,200
no matter how large or small if it's

492
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:34,160
below the

493
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:36,960
global planetary level and that's the

494
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:38,960
thing that you truly care about

495
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:41,520
then almost always that's going to be

496
00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:43,039
disruptive

497
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:46,240
planet

498
00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:48,480
and almost always is there instances in

499
00:17:52,070 --> 00:17:49,440
which it's not

500
00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:52,080
uh theoretically it is possible for you

501
00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:54,080
to do something which

502
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:56,240
which benefits you compared to everyone

503
00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:57,440
else in your group

504
00:18:01,669 --> 00:18:00,080
and benefits the group at the same time

505
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:01,679
that can happen

506
00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:03,600
but it's very seldom because of the

507
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:06,240
basic nature of trade-offs

508
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:07,760
in order to benefit the group it

509
00:18:11,909 --> 00:18:10,160
requires doing certain things

510
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:11,919
and those things are typically very

511
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:13,520
different than

512
00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:16,960
what it takes to maximize your relative

513
00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:18,400
position within the group

514
00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:20,240
and i often say this one of my favorite

515
00:18:24,549 --> 00:18:21,919
ways of

516
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:24,559
explaining this is with the game of

517
00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:26,400
monopoly we all know

518
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:28,799
the game of monopoly so imagine playing

519
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:30,000
that game

520
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:31,600
and of course the goal there is to

521
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:33,440
capture all the real estate

522
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:36,480
and drive everyone else bankrupt

523
00:18:40,470 --> 00:18:39,200
that's the goal of monopoly is to

524
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:40,480
maximize your

525
00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:42,960
relative advantage within the group so

526
00:18:47,270 --> 00:18:44,720
imagine playing that game

527
00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:47,280
and now imagine playing a monopoly

528
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:48,240
tournament

529
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:50,559
so now many games are in play and the

530
00:18:54,549 --> 00:18:52,559
trophy goes to the team

531
00:18:56,789 --> 00:18:54,559
that collectively develops their

532
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:56,799
property the fastest i've changed the

533
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:58,160
goals of the game

534
00:19:01,830 --> 00:18:59,760
and when i do this in front of an

535
00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:01,840
audience i ask them

536
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:05,360
and i'll ask the viewers of this of this

537
00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:08,160
of this video so imagine playing that

538
00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:09,200
tournament

539
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:11,840
and isn't it the case that almost every

540
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:13,840
decision you make

541
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:16,240
playing in a tournament would be

542
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:17,120
different

543
00:19:20,549 --> 00:19:18,960
than the decisions you would make

544
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:20,559
playing the single game

545
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:23,360
of monopoly there's your trade-off right

546
00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:24,000
there

547
00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:25,760
that which is required for the group to

548
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,400
function as a coordinated unit

549
00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:30,720
is different than that which is required

550
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:31,840
for you

551
00:19:35,350 --> 00:19:34,080
to maximize your relative advantage

552
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:35,360
within the group so it's

553
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:38,480
seldom the case that the same behavior

554
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:39,039
would

555
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:42,000
contribute to both goals that's the

556
00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:43,280
sense in which

557
00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:45,470
in which becoming

558
00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:46,640
[Music]

559
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:49,919
basically serving one identity is going

560
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:50,400
to

561
00:19:57,270 --> 00:19:53,520
create problems for

562
00:20:00,470 --> 00:19:57,280
the higher the still higher level good

563
00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:00,480
so there's a very very strong

564
00:20:08,549 --> 00:20:05,120
scientific argument for a whole earth

565
00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:08,559
ethic and i think that all by itself

566
00:20:15,669 --> 00:20:13,360
is a profound insight that emerges from

567
00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:15,679
uh evolution would that work if only

568
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:17,200
america adopted or only

569
00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:20,000
one country or one continent adopted the

570
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:21,760
whole earth ethic would that still work

571
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:23,600
if everybody else is acting selfishly

572
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:25,280
only one did no and here's

573
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:28,000
here's another insight that when we talk

574
00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:30,159
about these large large-scale things

575
00:20:34,310 --> 00:20:32,240
like global things

576
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:34,320
we can get a lot of insight by shrinking

577
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:36,320
them down

578
00:20:40,870 --> 00:20:38,720
and seeing their similarity to the

579
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:40,880
dynamics of individuals in small groups

580
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:42,480
so i'll put your question

581
00:20:46,789 --> 00:20:45,039
i'm going to shrink your question how do

582
00:20:48,710 --> 00:20:46,799
you

583
00:20:51,029 --> 00:20:48,720
in this in a small group if there's only

584
00:20:54,149 --> 00:20:51,039
one cooperator

585
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:54,159
and everyone else is a defector uh

586
00:20:58,310 --> 00:20:55,919
can cooperation succeed under those

587
00:21:00,630 --> 00:20:58,320
conditions no it cannot

588
00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:00,640
but how many cooperatives do you need

589
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:02,000
and game theory tells us

590
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:04,559
there's a whole literature on this that

591
00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:05,520
actually you don't need

592
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:09,440
too many cooperators to swing things

593
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:11,840
in the direction of cooperation why is

594
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:12,480
that

595
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:16,000
well for one thing the cooperators can

596
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:18,000
cluster they can interact with each

597
00:21:21,630 --> 00:21:19,440
other

598
00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:21,640
and avoid the depredations of

599
00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:22,960
non-cooperators

600
00:21:28,870 --> 00:21:26,480
they can establish norms and very often

601
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:28,880
people are willing to do something

602
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:30,640
that's for the good of the group as long

603
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:32,640
as they can establish norms

604
00:21:40,149 --> 00:21:37,679
um that um that punish non-cooperative

605
00:21:41,669 --> 00:21:40,159
behavior it's like i'm not willing

606
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:41,679
here's a good example

607
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:43,440
let's say that there's something

608
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:45,039
dangerous that needs to be done by one

609
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:48,240
person in order to save the group

610
00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:49,919
maybe someone will volunteer but if they

611
00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:52,480
don't let's draw straws

612
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:55,200
with strong straws it randomizes the

613
00:21:57,669 --> 00:21:56,640
probability that you're going to be the

614
00:22:00,549 --> 00:21:57,679
one

615
00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:00,559
that has to do the dangerous task it's

616
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:02,320
fair

617
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:05,840
draw straws

618
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:08,159
even if we might not agree just to

619
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:09,520
volunteer to

620
00:22:14,549 --> 00:22:11,600
to do something and so there's all kinds

621
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:14,559
of things that can be established

622
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:16,480
even at the level of small groups that

623
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:19,039
can cause everyone to cooperate

624
00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:20,880
even if you're starting out with a

625
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:22,640
relatively small fraction

626
00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:26,240
of cooperators now we can have having

627
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:28,240
having thought about this at the small

628
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:29,840
scale we can

629
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:32,400
enlarge it back up to the global scale

630
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,760
and you ask the question if only one

631
00:22:36,149 --> 00:22:35,520
nation does this will it work no it

632
00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:36,159
won't

633
00:22:39,909 --> 00:22:38,400
but if there's a critical mass if

634
00:22:40,789 --> 00:22:39,919
there's only one corporation will it

635
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:40,799
work

636
00:22:45,029 --> 00:22:43,200
no but if there's a critical mass if

637
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:45,039
there's b corpse

638
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:46,640
we just learned now that the business

639
00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:49,200
council this this group of uh

640
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:52,480
of business ceos from all of the

641
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:55,600
global corporations has met

642
00:23:01,350 --> 00:22:59,120
and made a very important decision

643
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:01,360
they've decided that they'll no longer

644
00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:03,280
behave just to maximize short-term

645
00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:05,679
profits for their shareholders

646
00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:07,200
they've decided that that actually maybe

647
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:09,440
wasn't such a good idea maybe they

648
00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:10,720
should have some more sense of

649
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:12,000
responsibility

650
00:23:16,149 --> 00:23:14,880
towards their stakeholders not their

651
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:16,159
shareholders their

652
00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:19,280
employees their supply chain their

653
00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:21,280
customers

654
00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:23,760
this fiction that by maximizing the

655
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:24,720
profits for their

656
00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:27,600
shareholders then that that's some

657
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:29,280
invisible hand thing takes place and

658
00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:29,760
that

659
00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:33,270
works out for the global good it's just

660
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:34,870
which we've known scientifically for a

661
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:38,080
long time finally the business council

662
00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:40,559
has decided maybe that's that's right

663
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:41,760
maybe they should

664
00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:45,200
have some people that are

665
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:46,960
willing to function excuse me some

666
00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:48,880
corporations that are willing to

667
00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:49,760
function in

668
00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:52,960
in cooperation or maybe something can

669
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:53,760
come of that

670
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:56,400
and the same thing with nations is there

671
00:23:59,269 --> 00:23:57,440
something different about

672
00:24:01,269 --> 00:23:59,279
humans or different about our times that

673
00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:01,279
we need this whole earth ethic

674
00:24:04,310 --> 00:24:02,720
because looking outside right now maybe

675
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:04,320
there's a cricket and it's not thinking

676
00:24:06,870 --> 00:24:05,440
about

677
00:24:08,549 --> 00:24:06,880
the whole earth it's just thinking it

678
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:08,559
might be thinking about how do i have

679
00:24:11,669 --> 00:24:10,320
sex and how do i

680
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:11,679
selfishly i don't care about my

681
00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:13,120
neighbors i just want to i want to

682
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:14,240
procreate

683
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:16,799
is there something about us now in our

684
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:18,000
times that we need a whole earth

685
00:24:20,710 --> 00:24:19,440
ethic because that guy doesn't have a

686
00:24:21,029 --> 00:24:20,720
whole earth ethic so what's different

687
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:21,039
about

688
00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:25,200
us just our power our nuclear power

689
00:24:28,549 --> 00:24:26,720
so there's a number of important things

690
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:28,559
to uh say about that by the way

691
00:24:31,669 --> 00:24:30,640
is your questions going to be part of

692
00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:31,679
the video yeah

693
00:24:43,029 --> 00:24:42,070
hello hello testing great okay and that

694
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:43,039
one's there

695
00:24:48,149 --> 00:24:46,159
and that's great great that's your phone

696
00:24:50,070 --> 00:24:48,159
there's that peter's that's my phone

697
00:24:52,149 --> 00:24:50,080
yeah oh that's your phone okay okay

698
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:52,159
okay so the question was what the heck

699
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:53,279
is different about

700
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:56,480
us compared to some animals because i'm

701
00:24:58,549 --> 00:24:57,039
sure

702
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:58,559
animals aren't thinking how do i

703
00:25:01,830 --> 00:25:00,400
benevolently help the earth they don't

704
00:25:02,470 --> 00:25:01,840
even have a conception of the earth but

705
00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:02,480
yet

706
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:03,840
you're advocating for a whole earth

707
00:25:07,830 --> 00:25:06,080
ethic for us so there's

708
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:07,840
i think two main things to say about

709
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:10,000
that there's a number of major ideas

710
00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:10,720
that are still

711
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:14,640
quite prevalent but are pre-darwinian

712
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:17,200
they're false ideas one idea in

713
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:18,480
economics

714
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:20,400
is that there's some kind of natural

715
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:22,320
order

716
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:25,120
that if everyone just pursues their

717
00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:25,919
self-interest

718
00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:27,440
and they're led as if by an invisible

719
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:30,159
hand to benefit the common

720
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:31,840
good that implies that there's some kind

721
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:34,240
of self-organized

722
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:36,480
system that works well and that we

723
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:38,080
unknowingly play our parts

724
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:41,279
so so that's one idea but

725
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:43,360
there's a parallel idea in biology which

726
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:45,360
is sort of harmony in nature that nature

727
00:25:48,789 --> 00:25:46,880
left by itself

728
00:25:51,269 --> 00:25:48,799
strikes some kind of balance and so

729
00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:51,279
ecosystems for example

730
00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:54,720
have some sort of design or harmony

731
00:25:58,149 --> 00:25:57,039
to them that's an idea in biology which

732
00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:58,159
is quite

733
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:01,440
similar to ideas and economics and

734
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:03,120
they're both profoundly

735
00:26:06,630 --> 00:26:06,240
false false um evolution doesn't make

736
00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:06,640
any

737
00:26:10,149 --> 00:26:09,360
everything nice and so if you look out

738
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:10,159
there

739
00:26:16,789 --> 00:26:13,520
at the great outdoors what you find is

740
00:26:18,549 --> 00:26:16,799
ecosystems collection of species

741
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:18,559
and those species are all pursuing their

742
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:19,840
adaptive strategies

743
00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:21,520
all the crickets are trying to get laid

744
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:23,440
and the fish are trying to get laid and

745
00:26:25,909 --> 00:26:24,880
the birds and the bees are trying to get

746
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:25,919
laid and

747
00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:27,760
and survive and so on and so forth how

748
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:29,279
does that settle out at the level of the

749
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:30,240
whole collective

750
00:26:37,269 --> 00:26:34,960
the ecosystem not necessarily harmonious

751
00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:37,279
and nowadays and so the balance of

752
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:39,360
nature that concept

753
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:42,240
is something which has been rejected and

754
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:43,440
what

755
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:47,200
is more true is often called

756
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:50,880
ecological regimes and that

757
00:26:55,590 --> 00:26:53,200
i think is so evocative because if you

758
00:26:56,549 --> 00:26:55,600
look at what the word regime means in

759
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:56,559
human

760
00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:58,480
social systems when we call something a

761
00:27:02,390 --> 00:27:00,159
regime

762
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:02,400
there has to be a bit of stability about

763
00:27:04,789 --> 00:27:04,480
it a regime is something which is going

764
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:04,799
to

765
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:06,799
hang around a while we wouldn't call it

766
00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:08,960
a regime if it was just transient

767
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:12,240
so it's stable but is it a good regime

768
00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:14,799
a bad regime is it a corrupt regime a

769
00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:16,240
despotic regime

770
00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:19,520
an enlightened regime its stability

771
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:22,480
does not tell us about its quality as

772
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:23,360
some kind of

773
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:26,480
system that we might want to live in and

774
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:28,080
so what you find in nature

775
00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:29,840
are regimes there's collections of

776
00:27:34,710 --> 00:27:31,360
species that are

777
00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:34,720
kind of stable

778
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:37,440
but are they good do they recycle

779
00:27:41,830 --> 00:27:39,520
nutrients well or poorly

780
00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:41,840
and what you find is is that many

781
00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:44,320
ecological regimes many communities

782
00:27:50,389 --> 00:27:48,240
are out there are despotic in

783
00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:50,399
human terms there's one dominant species

784
00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:52,559
that's bullying the other

785
00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:56,559
species poisoning its environment

786
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:58,000
let us say and the same is true for

787
00:28:02,230 --> 00:27:59,919
single species societies many

788
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:02,240
social species if you look at their

789
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:05,120
societies they're horrible societies and

790
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:07,840
in human terms they're just dominated by

791
00:28:11,909 --> 00:28:09,120
individuals trying to

792
00:28:13,990 --> 00:28:11,919
they're like the single game of monopoly

793
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:14,000
we'd never want to live in those

794
00:28:20,389 --> 00:28:17,440
in those societies and so

795
00:28:21,909 --> 00:28:20,399
nature does not provide some kind of

796
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:21,919
simplistic

797
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:25,440
model of harmony and cooperation

798
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:28,320
not single species social systems and

799
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:29,120
not

800
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:32,640
multi-species communities there are in

801
00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:33,120
nature

802
00:28:37,990 --> 00:28:36,000
some ecosystems and some single species

803
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:38,000
communities that work extraordinarily

804
00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:38,320
well

805
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:41,679
as societies we have our microbiomes

806
00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:43,279
we also have the social insects that

807
00:28:48,389 --> 00:28:44,960
we've known about for a long time your

808
00:28:53,269 --> 00:28:48,399
ants your bees your termites

809
00:28:55,510 --> 00:28:53,279
your wasps those function as colonies

810
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:55,520
extremely well because they've been

811
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:56,480
selected as

812
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:00,399
at the colony at the colony level

813
00:29:04,470 --> 00:29:02,960
and so i think really if we if we search

814
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:04,480
for a religious doctrine it should be

815
00:29:08,549 --> 00:29:06,480
the buddhist doctrine

816
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:08,559
the four noble truths which begins with

817
00:29:12,950 --> 00:29:10,720
life is suffering

818
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:12,960
if we look out there in human life and

819
00:29:19,350 --> 00:29:16,320
in the biological world we see primarily

820
00:29:22,149 --> 00:29:19,360
suffering why

821
00:29:23,669 --> 00:29:22,159
because of greed and striving we're all

822
00:29:27,269 --> 00:29:23,679
striving to

823
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:27,279
accomplish our lower level goals

824
00:29:32,870 --> 00:29:30,320
and that's what's producing suffering

825
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:32,880
higher up the scale is there a solution

826
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:34,559
yes is there a path

827
00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:38,000
yes there is and what might that be

828
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:41,919
it is basically a recognition

829
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:44,799
that if we want to benefit the whole

830
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:45,840
system

831
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,840
then we have to lose our attachment to

832
00:29:52,230 --> 00:29:49,039
the self

833
00:29:55,830 --> 00:29:52,240
okay and we have to work on behalf

834
00:29:58,710 --> 00:29:55,840
of the whole system is actually quite a

835
00:29:59,830 --> 00:29:58,720
impressive mapping of buddhist thought

836
00:30:02,549 --> 00:29:59,840
onto

837
00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:02,559
evolutionary thought that's very

838
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:04,320
interesting thing to uh

839
00:30:19,190 --> 00:30:16,789
got him wow oh i wish that on camera

840
00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:20,630
okay so let's get back to this so you

841
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:22,960
said that if i'm hearing correctly there

842
00:30:27,029 --> 00:30:23,919
are regimes

843
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:27,039
in other words stable groups and just

844
00:30:30,230 --> 00:30:29,120
because they have lasted for a long time

845
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:30,240
it doesn't mean

846
00:30:35,110 --> 00:30:34,080
good is defined as the opposite of bad

847
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:35,120
and bad is defined as

848
00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:36,960
selfishly power hungry something like

849
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:39,039
that if you look at human history

850
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:46,549
multi-level selection operating at

851
00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:48,000
various

852
00:30:53,110 --> 00:30:51,279
scales what defines us as a species

853
00:30:55,269 --> 00:30:53,120
is our ability to cooperate at the scale

854
00:30:58,710 --> 00:30:55,279
of small groups i think that

855
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:58,720
one of the amazing discoveries of

856
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:01,200
recent evolutionary thought is that we

857
00:31:07,590 --> 00:31:06,310
a a eu social species in a sense or an

858
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:07,600
ultra-social

859
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:09,600
species in some ways we are like a

860
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:11,360
beehive

861
00:31:18,789 --> 00:31:14,480
that's how cooperative we are in small

862
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:18,799
and small small group so we achieved a

863
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:19,679
degree of

864
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:23,200
of within group harmony uh

865
00:31:27,430 --> 00:31:25,360
always protected always guarded and

866
00:31:29,509 --> 00:31:27,440
vigilant it's not as if we're noble

867
00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:29,519
savages it's that we're able to hold

868
00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:30,480
each other

869
00:31:34,710 --> 00:31:32,880
in check we have a very strong sense

870
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:34,720
that we're moral equals basically and

871
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:36,240
that therefore you shouldn't

872
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:38,960
beat up on me that's a bad thing to do

873
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:40,720
and we have the collective ability to

874
00:31:45,269 --> 00:31:42,000
gang up

875
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:45,279
on would-be bullies and so now that puts

876
00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:46,960
us into team mode

877
00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:48,960
and the whole concept of morality the

878
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:50,640
whole concept of morality could be

879
00:31:55,990 --> 00:31:52,559
understood as a set of mechanisms

880
00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:56,000
that cause us to function cooperatively

881
00:32:03,110 --> 00:31:59,600
in relatively small groups

882
00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:03,120
and so nevertheless

883
00:32:06,549 --> 00:32:04,480
when it came to between group

884
00:32:07,269 --> 00:32:06,559
interactions anything goes and anything

885
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:07,279
means

886
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:11,039
not just warfare but trade and

887
00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:13,760
and forms of cooperation and the full

888
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:15,519
range of ecological interactions that

889
00:32:20,710 --> 00:32:17,279
take place between species

890
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:20,720
also took place among small human groups

891
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:24,480
including warfare big time warfare so

892
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:26,960
so competition between groups violent or

893
00:32:31,110 --> 00:32:28,080
otherwise

894
00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:31,120
is joined at the hip with cooperation

895
00:32:34,149 --> 00:32:32,960
within groups so suffering didn't go

896
00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:34,159
away

897
00:32:37,909 --> 00:32:36,080
it just took place more at the level of

898
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:37,919
between group interactions

899
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:40,960
than within group interactions

900
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:42,399
can you explain that suffering didn't go

901
00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:44,399
away just took place at the level of

902
00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:46,159
between group interactions so the

903
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:47,519
individual wasn't suffering what do you

904
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:48,880
mean

905
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:55,909
there's one person involved in this uh

906
00:32:59,669 --> 00:32:57,279
richard mangum who's

907
00:33:01,990 --> 00:32:59,679
one of the anthropologists who studied

908
00:33:03,669 --> 00:33:02,000
chimpanzees for a long long

909
00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:03,679
time has a new book out called the

910
00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:05,440
goodness paradox

911
00:33:08,950 --> 00:33:07,110
a great book and

912
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:08,960
[Music]

913
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:10,960
not as good as this view of life thank

914
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:12,000
you thank you

915
00:33:17,669 --> 00:33:15,760
um but um and he talks among other

916
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:17,679
things about self-domestication

917
00:33:22,389 --> 00:33:19,600
which is a fascinating topic in its own

918
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:22,399
right so when we domesticate species we

919
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:25,200
select them mostly for their tameness

920
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:26,640
but do you know a lot of other stuff

921
00:33:29,909 --> 00:33:28,080
comes along with it and there's a whole

922
00:33:32,710 --> 00:33:29,919
fascinating story

923
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:32,720
about how selecting for the behavior of

924
00:33:36,830 --> 00:33:33,760
tameness

925
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:36,840
also selects for all sorts of

926
00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:39,519
physiological uh

927
00:33:43,990 --> 00:33:43,200
traits so and that's a that's kind of

928
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:44,000
another

929
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:46,000
uh story but in the same the same way

930
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:48,960
that we've domesticated many species

931
00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:51,039
uh we've also domesticated ourselves

932
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:53,519
basically we've selected ourselves for

933
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:55,360
tameness another way to retell the story

934
00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:56,880
that i just told

935
00:34:00,950 --> 00:33:59,279
is that in a group where people are able

936
00:34:02,549 --> 00:34:00,960
there's a relatively equal balance of

937
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:02,559
power people to

938
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:04,399
hold each other in check then if you're

939
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:06,159
a big bastard

940
00:34:11,109 --> 00:34:08,560
that's trying to get your way ultimately

941
00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:11,119
we'll just kill you

942
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:12,480
and before that we'll have other

943
00:34:15,669 --> 00:34:13,919
sanctions which are going to limit your

944
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:15,679
reproductive success and that's like

945
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:18,079
selecting ourselves for tameness

946
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:21,839
okay so now we are docile in a way

947
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:26,240
um that chimps aren't so

948
00:34:30,389 --> 00:34:28,720
rangham who should know says that if you

949
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:30,399
look at the level of aggression within

950
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:32,240
groups the kind of interaction where i

951
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:32,639
just

952
00:34:38,710 --> 00:34:36,000
out of you

953
00:34:40,069 --> 00:34:38,720
and we're a member of the same community

954
00:34:42,310 --> 00:34:40,079
that happens

955
00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:42,320
in a chimp community a hundred or a

956
00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:44,720
thousand times more frequently

957
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:46,639
than in a small scale society if you

958
00:34:50,869 --> 00:34:48,000
live within a small scale

959
00:34:53,349 --> 00:34:50,879
human society you'd never see that you

960
00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:53,359
see people getting along pretty

961
00:34:57,349 --> 00:34:55,440
well and so that means they're not

962
00:35:01,030 --> 00:34:57,359
imposing suffering on each other

963
00:35:02,710 --> 00:35:01,040
within groups very much very much

964
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:02,720
yet they're still suffering when we go

965
00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:05,119
on a raid

966
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:07,040
to another group and we kill somebody

967
00:35:10,870 --> 00:35:08,480
and steal their women and

968
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:10,880
we do all that kind of or maybe

969
00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:12,800
exterminate them

970
00:35:16,390 --> 00:35:14,480
entirely so yes they're suffering and

971
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:16,400
it's self-imposed suffering but it's

972
00:35:20,390 --> 00:35:18,240
being imposed at the level

973
00:35:22,630 --> 00:35:20,400
of groups now if you look at the last

974
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:22,640
ten thousand years of human history

975
00:35:28,550 --> 00:35:24,800
and here my colleague peter turchen

976
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:28,560
takes over with his book ultra society

977
00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:31,359
the last 10 000 years of what's it

978
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:32,000
called again

979
00:35:36,870 --> 00:35:34,720
it's called ultra society how ten

980
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:36,880
thousand years of warfare turned us into

981
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:39,599
the greatest cooperators on earth

982
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:41,599
uh what you find is basically the same

983
00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:43,680
thing at ever increasing

984
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:47,440
scales with the advent of agriculture

985
00:35:51,670 --> 00:35:48,720
and the fact that we're a cultural

986
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:51,680
species of the whole

987
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:54,320
genetic evolution of cultural evolution

988
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:55,760
and we actually need to be getting to

989
00:35:58,470 --> 00:35:57,200
that because it gets to such things as

990
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:58,480
archetypes and

991
00:36:02,069 --> 00:36:00,480
memes and the whole fact that in our

992
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:02,079
species

993
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:04,320
there's a cultural stream of evolution

994
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:06,480
in addition to a genetic

995
00:36:11,910 --> 00:36:09,680
stream of evolution and all of that is

996
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:11,920
a matter of cooperation also so if we

997
00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:13,200
didn't evolve to be a cooperative

998
00:36:15,829 --> 00:36:14,160
species

999
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:15,839
but could we could not have evolved the

1000
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:17,440
ability to transmit

1001
00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:19,119
large amounts of learned information

1002
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:20,480
across generations

1003
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:23,760
through symbolic systems

1004
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:25,680
systems of symbolic thought so

1005
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:28,079
everything distinctive about our species

1006
00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:29,119
including our

1007
00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:31,839
capacity for symbolic thought and our

1008
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:33,599
ability to transmit large amounts of

1009
00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:35,040
information across cultures

1010
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:37,680
all of that was only made possible

1011
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:39,920
thanks to the fact that we became highly

1012
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:40,800
cooperative

1013
00:36:45,349 --> 00:36:43,200
we cooperate in physical activities and

1014
00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:45,359
we cooperate in mental activities

1015
00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:47,440
as a result we began to generate our own

1016
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:48,480
resources

1017
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:51,920
scale of human society increased and now

1018
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:54,880
that's been a process um that's taken us

1019
00:37:00,069 --> 00:36:56,640
to the present

1020
00:37:01,430 --> 00:37:00,079
moment of huge societies of hundreds of

1021
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:01,440
millions and even billions of

1022
00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:02,640
individuals

1023
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:05,839
operating in a way that is um

1024
00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:08,960
amazingly cooperative on an average day

1025
00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:12,400
if you go out luckily for us

1026
00:37:16,710 --> 00:37:15,599
you won't see people imposing a lot of

1027
00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:16,720
suffering

1028
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:17,760
well you won't see anything because

1029
00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:20,960
there's nothing for miles out here

1030
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:24,400
so so um

1031
00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:26,560
so another answer to your question is

1032
00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:28,960
that the scale of society has become so

1033
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:31,680
big that that basically we're now having

1034
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:34,079
a planetary impact that we didn't have

1035
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:36,800
before there's no escape from that and

1036
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:37,440
so

1037
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:44,240
uh cultural evolution has been building

1038
00:37:49,589 --> 00:37:45,920
towards

1039
00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:49,599
but uh now more than ever before we are

1040
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:50,800
uh

1041
00:37:55,109 --> 00:37:53,440
having a planetary impact that requires

1042
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:55,119
us to have a whole earth ethic before

1043
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:57,520
that there would be externalities

1044
00:38:02,550 --> 00:37:59,839
and then and that would not be quite as

1045
00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:02,560
dominating as they are now but now we're

1046
00:38:07,829 --> 00:38:06,160
we're really in a situation where if we

1047
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:07,839
don't act at the planetary scale then

1048
00:38:13,510 --> 00:38:09,760
we're toast

1049
00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:13,520
so that is what's in front of us

1050
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:15,040
i'm just going to try and restate what

1051
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,960
you said we grew up in

1052
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:18,560
small social groups so we've been

1053
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:20,400
selected somewhat for

1054
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:23,280
cooperative behavior now our small

1055
00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:24,640
groups became medium-sized groups and

1056
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:26,480
then large groups and now we're so

1057
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:28,800
technologically powerful that our

1058
00:38:32,150 --> 00:38:30,560
mistakes are causing the destruction of

1059
00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:32,160
the entire planet and therefore we need

1060
00:38:36,390 --> 00:38:33,040
to adopt

1061
00:38:38,230 --> 00:38:36,400
a new ethic is that

1062
00:38:39,990 --> 00:38:38,240
a good summation or is there something

1063
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:40,000
that's missing it's not a bad summation

1064
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:42,000
a new ethic is basically a more global

1065
00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:44,640
ethic i think that

1066
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:46,240
quite an important thing to say because

1067
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:48,880
it's in contrast to

1068
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:50,880
orthodox economic thought if you take

1069
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:53,760
someone like friedrich hayek

1070
00:38:59,109 --> 00:38:56,800
he would say that that who was actually

1071
00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:59,119
very evolutionary for his day

1072
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:01,280
that there was basically we have our

1073
00:39:04,630 --> 00:39:02,880
tribal values you know we operate in

1074
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:04,640
small groups and we have that whole kind

1075
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:05,920
of system but

1076
00:39:10,069 --> 00:39:08,000
a modern economic system has to be

1077
00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:10,079
something very different

1078
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:13,359
and that's what the market economy is

1079
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:14,720
and that's where the invisible hand

1080
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:16,880
comes from the idea that

1081
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:18,640
we can all pursue our lower level

1082
00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:20,160
self-interest and it'll

1083
00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:23,520
magically uh benefit the

1084
00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:26,560
common uh good now

1085
00:39:30,230 --> 00:39:28,720
although market economies are huge and

1086
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:30,240
very important and so on although they

1087
00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:31,520
have to be much better much better

1088
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:34,079
regulated make no mistake

1089
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:36,880
really what it seems is that we need to

1090
00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:38,560
take those tribal values

1091
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:42,720
that and we need to scale them up

1092
00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:45,839
scale them up they're not different they

1093
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:46,720
just have to be

1094
00:39:50,790 --> 00:39:48,640
operating at a larger scale at the level

1095
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:50,800
of nations and global corporations

1096
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:53,280
within the global village for example

1097
00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:54,960
so their interactions are a little

1098
00:39:59,030 --> 00:39:57,440
different than

1099
00:40:00,630 --> 00:39:59,040
interactions of individuals in our

1100
00:40:02,069 --> 00:40:00,640
groups as i said earlier

1101
00:40:03,910 --> 00:40:02,079
in this conversation let's take these

1102
00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:03,920
big problems and shrink them down

1103
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:06,800
see what they look like for individuals

1104
00:40:10,870 --> 00:40:09,040
in a small group then we can expand them

1105
00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:10,880
back up and what you see they're the

1106
00:40:15,190 --> 00:40:12,160
same problems

1107
00:40:17,109 --> 00:40:15,200
and so so we need to we we have to have

1108
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:17,119
a moral system that moral system has to

1109
00:40:21,109 --> 00:40:18,240
include all of us

1110
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:21,119
it has to be a planetary moral system we

1111
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:23,200
have to be solid citizens

1112
00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:24,640
ourselves and then we have to hold

1113
00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:26,640
others in

1114
00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:28,400
check and we have to do that as nations

1115
00:40:33,270 --> 00:40:30,960
and and multinational corporations and

1116
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:33,280
we use the genius of the of technology

1117
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:34,720
and the internet to give us a nervous

1118
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:40,150
we need it it's essential for for that

1119
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:42,000
uh yes there has to be market processes

1120
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,200
but they have to be much better

1121
00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:45,359
regulated and oriented towards the

1122
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:48,560
common uh common good so it's the same

1123
00:40:54,470 --> 00:40:50,880
way of thinking the same values

1124
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:54,480
the great challenge is to expand their

1125
00:40:58,309 --> 00:40:57,359
scale this may sound foolish but why is

1126
00:41:00,790 --> 00:40:58,319
it a challenge

1127
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:00,800
if we were selected for it why isn't it

1128
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,470
that is um

1129
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:09,990
actually a deeper question than you

1130
00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:12,240
might think or maybe you thought i

1131
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:13,440
already thought it was a deep question

1132
00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:14,160
but

1133
00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:15,280
i think all my questions are deep

1134
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:17,920
questions here's i think our

1135
00:41:27,430 --> 00:41:25,030
question that might seem tangential but

1136
00:41:29,750 --> 00:41:27,440
can relate

1137
00:41:32,790 --> 00:41:29,760
do women have breast do women have

1138
00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:32,800
instincts for breastfeeding

1139
00:41:36,150 --> 00:41:34,240
isn't it curious that when bottle

1140
00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:36,160
feeding became available so many women

1141
00:41:39,589 --> 00:41:38,240
jumped say well that's a good idea

1142
00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:39,599
and they didn't have any sort of

1143
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:42,079
instinct for breastfeeding it

1144
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:44,160
it seems well that actually makes sense

1145
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:45,760
when you realize that there was never

1146
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:49,200
any alternative

1147
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:50,560
so why do you need an instinct for

1148
00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:52,800
something where there's no

1149
00:41:56,950 --> 00:41:55,680
alternative there's a sense where uh

1150
00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:56,960
life in small groups

1151
00:42:02,309 --> 00:42:00,160
do we have instincts for for living in

1152
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:02,319
in small groups in a sense yes but

1153
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:03,760
there's also a sense in which

1154
00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:06,000
there was never any alternative until

1155
00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:06,880
the last

1156
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:09,920
10 000 years and so now

1157
00:42:14,390 --> 00:42:11,520
and this is what i spend most of my time

1158
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:14,400
doing scientifically is studying

1159
00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:16,079
groups of all sizes including small

1160
00:42:20,069 --> 00:42:17,440
groups but do you know that if you look

1161
00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:20,079
at small groups in modern life

1162
00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:23,119
and you ask how old do they function um

1163
00:42:27,270 --> 00:42:25,920
they vary hugely they don't all function

1164
00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:27,280
well if you put people in a small

1165
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:30,079
group they don't always function they

1166
00:42:35,589 --> 00:42:33,200
don't just click like that as if we have

1167
00:42:36,630 --> 00:42:35,599
as if we have as we're naturally

1168
00:42:38,069 --> 00:42:36,640
predisposed to it

1169
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:38,079
what's that as if we're naturally

1170
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:39,920
predisposed as if we're not now we are

1171
00:42:43,109 --> 00:42:41,119
make no mistake

1172
00:42:47,829 --> 00:42:43,119
when we get to archetypes and and

1173
00:42:51,829 --> 00:42:50,150
this is i mean it's not a black and

1174
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:51,839
white thing yes we do have instincts

1175
00:42:54,630 --> 00:42:52,480
that

1176
00:42:55,829 --> 00:42:54,640
are brought into play we do have a

1177
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:55,839
strong sense of

1178
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:58,400
morality for example of egalitarianism

1179
00:43:01,910 --> 00:43:00,480
we don't like to be pushed around

1180
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:01,920
when we see this behavior we tend to

1181
00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:03,839
punish italy some of us

1182
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:06,560
do and these things are to some extent

1183
00:43:09,829 --> 00:43:08,160
sort of out of the box

1184
00:43:11,349 --> 00:43:09,839
okay so we have a very complicated

1185
00:43:14,550 --> 00:43:11,359
evolved

1186
00:43:16,150 --> 00:43:14,560
psychology that includes the psychology

1187
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:16,160
of moral systems and

1188
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:19,280
so on and so forth but for some reason

1189
00:43:26,069 --> 00:43:22,880
that is not enough for when you compose

1190
00:43:27,109 --> 00:43:26,079
a group in in in modern life where it's

1191
00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:27,119
just to

1192
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:34,000
um one reason is of course is that

1193
00:43:37,349 --> 00:43:36,160
we've always been playing the

1194
00:43:40,630 --> 00:43:37,359
multi-level

1195
00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:40,640
game our evolve psychology basically

1196
00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:43,680
puts us in the position of of

1197
00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:45,520
functioning in cooperative mode of

1198
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:47,440
exploitation

1199
00:43:51,990 --> 00:43:49,680
well there's more than one way to

1200
00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:52,000
survive and reproduce by cooperating or

1201
00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:53,680
by exploiting

1202
00:43:57,750 --> 00:43:56,000
so everyone to some extent has plan a

1203
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:57,760
and plan

1204
00:44:01,829 --> 00:44:00,000
b and when you see a group isn't

1205
00:44:03,109 --> 00:44:01,839
functioning well it's often because some

1206
00:44:07,349 --> 00:44:03,119
individuals within the group

1207
00:44:10,069 --> 00:44:07,359
are getting their way working for them

1208
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:10,079
it's just not working for everyone else

1209
00:44:14,950 --> 00:44:12,079
and so that's the dynamic of

1210
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:14,960
multi-level selection weighing in favor

1211
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:15,520
of

1212
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:18,240
the lower level disruptive process

1213
00:44:22,309 --> 00:44:20,560
basically people are playing and winning

1214
00:44:25,510 --> 00:44:22,319
the single game of monopoly they're not

1215
00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:25,520
playing in a monopoly

1216
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:29,280
tournament but

1217
00:44:36,069 --> 00:44:32,880
it's sufficiently unstated

1218
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:36,079
unexamined basically that you

1219
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:39,119
can go to any kind of group and you can

1220
00:44:41,349 --> 00:44:40,240
examine it you could look at the

1221
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:41,359
variation

1222
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:42,880
and then you could make it function

1223
00:44:48,710 --> 00:44:45,839
better by

1224
00:44:50,950 --> 00:44:48,720
by basically cultivating a more explicit

1225
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:50,960
awareness about evolution

1226
00:44:53,990 --> 00:44:52,960
multi-level selection and so on and so

1227
00:44:59,910 --> 00:44:54,000
forth to

1228
00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:03,109
get the group to function in in

1229
00:45:07,030 --> 00:45:05,119
monopoly tournament mode more than a

1230
00:45:08,950 --> 00:45:07,040
single game of monopoly mode

1231
00:45:11,670 --> 00:45:08,960
i have a couple questions one is a

1232
00:45:14,550 --> 00:45:11,680
slightly union question you was asked

1233
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:14,560
i think it was carl jung why can't i

1234
00:45:17,910 --> 00:45:14,880
just

1235
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,920
do what's good for me at the expense of

1236
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:19,440
others and then carly was like what give

1237
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:20,480
me an example he can't

1238
00:45:23,990 --> 00:45:22,480
he said you can't do that he said that

1239
00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:24,000
you have the more you realize that

1240
00:45:27,430 --> 00:45:25,200
you're

1241
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:27,440
inextricably linked with the world well

1242
00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:29,119
actually that's correct the more you

1243
00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:30,800
realize that the better your life will

1244
00:45:33,349 --> 00:45:31,440
be

1245
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:33,359
that person said why why can't i just

1246
00:45:38,550 --> 00:45:34,720
eat cheetos

1247
00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:38,560
and play video games and then he said

1248
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:40,240
that's not actually good for you that's

1249
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:41,599
good for you maybe

1250
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:43,520
for one week or maybe two weeks or maybe

1251
00:45:46,870 --> 00:45:45,280
a month but the longer you look out in

1252
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:46,880
time you have to take into account other

1253
00:45:49,030 --> 00:45:48,560
people because you're going to interact

1254
00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:49,040
with them

1255
00:45:51,910 --> 00:45:50,560
and then you also have to take into

1256
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:51,920
account your environment because you're

1257
00:45:55,270 --> 00:45:53,520
going to interact with your environment

1258
00:45:56,950 --> 00:45:55,280
and so you have to act in what would

1259
00:45:58,870 --> 00:45:56,960
traditionally be seen as noble or what

1260
00:46:00,790 --> 00:45:58,880
you call virtuous

1261
00:46:02,550 --> 00:46:00,800
if you want to benefit yourself across

1262
00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:02,560
time so just matters

1263
00:46:05,910 --> 00:46:03,920
like you were talking about the

1264
00:46:07,510 --> 00:46:05,920
corporations if they prioritize

1265
00:46:08,309 --> 00:46:07,520
short-term profits that not that's not

1266
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:08,319
necessarily good

1267
00:46:11,430 --> 00:46:10,400
but you included in a key word

1268
00:46:12,870 --> 00:46:11,440
short-term

1269
00:46:14,710 --> 00:46:12,880
so what if you think about long-term so

1270
00:46:17,589 --> 00:46:14,720
then the question is how long is long

1271
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:17,599
but my question is in this union sense

1272
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,400
what he was saying

1273
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:20,079
you look out across time let's say your

1274
00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:22,000
life span let's say 60 years maybe even

1275
00:46:25,349 --> 00:46:22,800
100 you

1276
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:25,359
incorporate your grandchildren into it

1277
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:27,040
then is it not true

1278
00:46:30,630 --> 00:46:29,040
that the self the more the more

1279
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:30,640
selfishly we act

1280
00:46:34,630 --> 00:46:32,480
the more it jives with what's good for

1281
00:46:35,829 --> 00:46:34,640
the group because i can't just screw you

1282
00:46:38,710 --> 00:46:35,839
that's actually not good for me i'm

1283
00:46:40,790 --> 00:46:38,720
gonna have a bad reputation

1284
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:40,800
okay there's a lot to unpack here you're

1285
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:42,079
attributing to

1286
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:45,280
jung something which actually gets

1287
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:48,079
replicated again and again and again

1288
00:46:52,390 --> 00:46:51,200
this idea that the uh

1289
00:46:54,630 --> 00:46:52,400
the most enlightened form of

1290
00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:54,640
self-interest is cooperation

1291
00:46:57,990 --> 00:46:56,400
then if you're selfish in the pejorative

1292
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:58,000
sense of the word benefiting yourself at

1293
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:58,800
the expense of

1294
00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:00,560
others well that's not even going to

1295
00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:02,319
work out for you over the long term so

1296
00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:04,319
really you should be cooperating

1297
00:47:08,069 --> 00:47:05,839
and so that's a line of thought which

1298
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:08,079
has been replicated again and again and

1299
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:09,040
again

1300
00:47:14,790 --> 00:47:12,400
and of course it's very normative

1301
00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:14,800
most recently i've encountered this in

1302
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:17,040
the writing of alexi de tocqueville

1303
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:19,280
the french social theorist who visited

1304
00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:21,520
america in the 1830s

1305
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:23,760
and commented compared his nation of

1306
00:47:28,069 --> 00:47:25,200
france with the new

1307
00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:28,079
democratic uh experiment and his phrase

1308
00:47:31,829 --> 00:47:29,200
was self-interest

1309
00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:31,839
rightly understood and it was quite

1310
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:33,040
fascinating because he

1311
00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:34,960
he was he actually was noting a cultural

1312
00:47:38,470 --> 00:47:36,240
trend it was very

1313
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:38,480
prescient that um in the old

1314
00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:40,319
aristocratic days when people talked

1315
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:41,760
about virtue and

1316
00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:43,680
sacrifice and things like that they

1317
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:45,760
actually did not frame it in terms of

1318
00:47:49,270 --> 00:47:48,000
enlightened self-interest but now

1319
00:47:51,750 --> 00:47:49,280
tocqueville said with all of the

1320
00:47:54,549 --> 00:47:51,760
democratic revolutions in america and

1321
00:47:56,390 --> 00:47:54,559
france and so on increasingly everything

1322
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:56,400
was being

1323
00:48:00,630 --> 00:47:58,880
framed in terms of self-interest we

1324
00:48:01,870 --> 00:48:00,640
don't do anything unless we see it as a

1325
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:01,880
form of

1326
00:48:06,150 --> 00:48:04,559
self-interest and that being the case we

1327
00:48:08,870 --> 00:48:06,160
have to distinguish between

1328
00:48:10,950 --> 00:48:08,880
self-interest rightly understood which

1329
00:48:12,630 --> 00:48:10,960
is cooperation

1330
00:48:14,150 --> 00:48:12,640
as opposed to self-interest wrongly

1331
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:14,160
understood which leads to all kind of

1332
00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:16,240
shitty

1333
00:48:20,950 --> 00:48:18,240
outcomes outcomes so tocqueville was

1334
00:48:24,069 --> 00:48:20,960
saying exactly the same thing that you

1335
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:24,079
represented jung is saying and it's been

1336
00:48:26,390 --> 00:48:25,680
said a thousand times before so

1337
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:26,400
basically

1338
00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:28,880
is there something wrong with it it's uh

1339
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:30,319
hold on it's an argument of

1340
00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:32,319
it's an argument for cooperation framed

1341
00:48:35,589 --> 00:48:34,240
in terms of self-interest

1342
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:35,599
and in order to do that it must

1343
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:37,520
distinguish between for

1344
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:39,359
between different kinds of self-interest

1345
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:41,760
the rightly understood kind

1346
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:43,440
and the wrongly understood kind even

1347
00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:44,880
iran the

1348
00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:46,480
high priestess of selfishness

1349
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:48,480
distinguished between rational and

1350
00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:50,240
irrational forms

1351
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:52,800
of self-interest you can't talk about

1352
00:48:57,510 --> 00:48:54,720
self-interest on the

1353
00:48:59,109 --> 00:48:57,520
on any kind of stage without actually

1354
00:49:01,270 --> 00:48:59,119
making this distinction and talking

1355
00:49:03,190 --> 00:49:01,280
about moral forms of self-interest

1356
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:03,200
as opposed to immoral forms of

1357
00:49:06,549 --> 00:49:04,559
self-interest so

1358
00:49:07,829 --> 00:49:06,559
so it's good advice you might say that

1359
00:49:09,349 --> 00:49:07,839
if everyone took it then they'd be

1360
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:09,359
cooperate

1361
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:17,030
i mean if it fails in a number of ways

1362
00:49:22,630 --> 00:49:18,000
other than a

1363
00:49:25,670 --> 00:49:22,640
story a nice aspirational narrative

1364
00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:25,680
it fails in a whole bunch of

1365
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:28,960
a whole bunch of of of ways and let me

1366
00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:30,319
try to begin to

1367
00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:33,760
to uh list them for one thing

1368
00:49:41,109 --> 00:49:36,800
it ignores the fact that

1369
00:49:42,790 --> 00:49:41,119
evolution is based on relative fitness

1370
00:49:44,950 --> 00:49:42,800
when it comes to evolution it does not

1371
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:44,960
matter how well you survive

1372
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:48,640
and reproduce in absolute terms

1373
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:52,000
only compared to others

1374
00:49:57,030 --> 00:49:55,680
in your vicinity and the whole appeal of

1375
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:57,040
enlightened self-interest as you

1376
00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:58,400
described it

1377
00:50:02,230 --> 00:49:59,920
if you're young i describe it through

1378
00:50:03,190 --> 00:50:02,240
toefl it's basically framed in terms of

1379
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:03,200
absolute

1380
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:05,680
self-interest if you're self-interested

1381
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:07,280
and rightly understood this will work

1382
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:07,680
out

1383
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:09,599
better for you than if it's

1384
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:10,960
self-interest wrongly

1385
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:12,800
understood you if you do this will do

1386
00:50:17,589 --> 00:50:14,800
better than you if you don't do

1387
00:50:19,109 --> 00:50:17,599
that that's not relative fitness the

1388
00:50:21,750 --> 00:50:19,119
question is how well am i going to do

1389
00:50:24,790 --> 00:50:21,760
compared to my competitors

1390
00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:24,800
others in my vicinity that's the

1391
00:50:27,430 --> 00:50:26,079
question we should be asking

1392
00:50:29,349 --> 00:50:27,440
no it's the question of the way the

1393
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:29,359
human mind is

1394
00:50:33,670 --> 00:50:32,160
and so when people actually operate very

1395
00:50:35,829 --> 00:50:33,680
often they're trying to get positional

1396
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:35,839
advantage

1397
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:38,960
okay that's how we operate

1398
00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:41,520
and it's not wrong i mean basically we

1399
00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:44,240
do need to worry about our relative

1400
00:50:47,589 --> 00:50:45,920
fitness that means that if i what's

1401
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:47,599
enlightened is to make sure

1402
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:49,440
that we all do something that's

1403
00:50:52,710 --> 00:50:50,880
cooperative okay

1404
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:52,720
we're all working towards cooperative

1405
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:55,040
solutions make no mistake

1406
00:50:58,950 --> 00:50:57,440
about that but when you look at how the

1407
00:51:02,150 --> 00:50:58,960
human mind actually

1408
00:51:03,030 --> 00:51:02,160
operates there's two things you can say

1409
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:03,040
about it

1410
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:07,280
it privileges positional advantage

1411
00:51:13,030 --> 00:51:11,280
and short-term

1412
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:13,040
gain as opposed to long-term gain we've

1413
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:16,400
all learned about discounting the future

1414
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:20,079
that a benefit now is going to be

1415
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:23,200
more important than that same benefit

1416
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:25,920
delayed in time why is it is because i

1417
00:51:29,349 --> 00:51:27,680
might not live that long

1418
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:29,359
and so especially when you put people in

1419
00:51:33,670 --> 00:51:30,960
precarious situations

1420
00:51:34,470 --> 00:51:33,680
existentially insecure situations their

1421
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:34,480
minds

1422
00:51:41,109 --> 00:51:37,920
are going to privilege

1423
00:51:45,109 --> 00:51:43,030
and if you tell them immediate relative

1424
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:45,119
gain immediate relative

1425
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:46,640
gain and if you tell them they'll be

1426
00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:48,160
better in the long term

1427
00:51:52,390 --> 00:51:51,040
as far as what they need to do

1428
00:51:52,870 --> 00:51:52,400
and what their minds are telling them to

1429
00:51:55,510 --> 00:51:52,880
do

1430
00:51:57,510 --> 00:51:55,520
in order to survive another day in order

1431
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:57,520
to survive another day

1432
00:52:01,270 --> 00:52:00,319
and one of my colleagues robert frank an

1433
00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:01,280
economist

1434
00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:07,589
wrote a book called the darwin economy

1435
00:52:12,309 --> 00:52:09,359
in which he makes this

1436
00:52:13,750 --> 00:52:12,319
very uh point he says a hundred years

1437
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:13,760
from now i hope it doesn't take that

1438
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:14,400
long

1439
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:17,680
darwin not adam smith will be regarded

1440
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:18,960
as the father

1441
00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:21,760
of economics and the main difference is

1442
00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:22,880
that economists as

1443
00:52:29,349 --> 00:52:26,319
i've just said they posit

1444
00:52:31,349 --> 00:52:29,359
the national actor homo economicus

1445
00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:31,359
the utility maximizer only wants to

1446
00:52:36,069 --> 00:52:33,440
maximize its absolute utility

1447
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:36,079
not in reference to anyone else as if we

1448
00:52:38,470 --> 00:52:37,920
only want to be wealthy in some absolute

1449
00:52:41,030 --> 00:52:38,480
sense

1450
00:52:42,790 --> 00:52:41,040
not in comparison to anyone else well no

1451
00:52:44,069 --> 00:52:42,800
one works like that

1452
00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:44,079
the only reason you want to have a

1453
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:45,920
thousand dollar suit is to look better

1454
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:53,589
suit life is about relative

1455
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:55,760
advantage and yet economic theory has

1456
00:53:00,390 --> 00:52:57,280
not framed that

1457
00:53:02,309 --> 00:53:00,400
that way so that's the sense in which an

1458
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:02,319
appeal to enlighten self-interest

1459
00:53:05,349 --> 00:53:04,319
it's it's a nice aspirational message

1460
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:05,359
but really it

1461
00:53:10,470 --> 00:53:08,240
it it it misses all of the complications

1462
00:53:12,870 --> 00:53:10,480
that we've just been talking about

1463
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:12,880
do you mean to say it's correct in that

1464
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:14,480
if we followed it it would be great it's

1465
00:53:19,190 --> 00:53:15,119
just not

1466
00:53:25,910 --> 00:53:22,630
he said it sounds nice in terms of

1467
00:53:28,230 --> 00:53:25,920
aspirations or inspirations but it's not

1468
00:53:30,150 --> 00:53:28,240
it's not it doesn't capture it in game

1469
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:30,160
theory terms and this this

1470
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:32,160
this holds for all efforts to make

1471
00:53:35,349 --> 00:53:33,760
people more cooperative whether you

1472
00:53:36,950 --> 00:53:35,359
frame it in terms of self-interest or

1473
00:53:39,750 --> 00:53:36,960
not

1474
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:39,760
if we encourage people to be altruistic

1475
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:41,119
or cooperative

1476
00:53:45,109 --> 00:53:43,200
and we motivate it in any way that moves

1477
00:53:46,309 --> 00:53:45,119
them it might be an appeal to

1478
00:53:48,790 --> 00:53:46,319
self-interest

1479
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:48,800
or it might be some other appeal to

1480
00:53:52,950 --> 00:53:50,640
empathy or

1481
00:53:53,910 --> 00:53:52,960
whatever so then they go out in the

1482
00:53:57,030 --> 00:53:53,920
world

1483
00:53:59,670 --> 00:53:57,040
and they're nice but it turns out

1484
00:54:01,910 --> 00:53:59,680
that the people with whom they interact

1485
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:01,920
are not necessarily

1486
00:54:06,950 --> 00:54:05,280
nice so what happens then

1487
00:54:08,470 --> 00:54:06,960
what happens on the basis of the advice

1488
00:54:11,829 --> 00:54:08,480
that you

1489
00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:11,839
gave them they're going to become losers

1490
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:13,760
because they're you you release them

1491
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:15,920
into a social environment in which

1492
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:17,760
in which cooperation is not the most

1493
00:54:21,270 --> 00:54:19,040
successful

1494
00:54:22,549 --> 00:54:21,280
strategy and so we have to be smarter

1495
00:54:24,790 --> 00:54:22,559
than that it's actually unethical to

1496
00:54:25,990 --> 00:54:24,800
counsel someone to be nice

1497
00:54:28,069 --> 00:54:26,000
and then put them in a social

1498
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:28,079
environment where niceness doesn't

1499
00:54:32,390 --> 00:54:30,319
pay so this is why we have to be much

1500
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:32,400
more systemic we have to create social

1501
00:54:36,829 --> 00:54:33,599
environments

1502
00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:36,839
that actually causes niceness to win the

1503
00:54:42,309 --> 00:54:38,720
darwinian

1504
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:42,319
contest and if we don't do that we go

1505
00:54:45,750 --> 00:54:44,160
my colleagues and i call this declawing

1506
00:54:48,069 --> 00:54:45,760
the cat the alley cat

1507
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:48,079
you don't take an alley cat remove its

1508
00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:49,440
claws and put it back in an

1509
00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:52,480
alley why would you do something like

1510
00:54:57,349 --> 00:54:53,920
that and why would the cat

1511
00:54:58,870 --> 00:54:57,359
actually take your advice and yet if you

1512
00:55:00,549 --> 00:54:58,880
create a social environment that

1513
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:00,559
actually protects niceness which is what

1514
00:55:04,789 --> 00:55:02,720
a moral system does

1515
00:55:05,829 --> 00:55:04,799
then most people will take a look at

1516
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:05,839
that and they'll say

1517
00:55:09,109 --> 00:55:07,520
okay it's safe to be nice now and

1518
00:55:11,109 --> 00:55:09,119
they'll be safe that's really nice

1519
00:55:13,349 --> 00:55:11,119
are you using nice as a synonym for

1520
00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:13,359
virtue or using nice just

1521
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:16,480
let me give cooperative strategies

1522
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:18,960
nice means is that i'm going to do well

1523
00:55:22,710 --> 00:55:21,119
by you

1524
00:55:24,309 --> 00:55:22,720
i'll be a cooperator because it could

1525
00:55:26,309 --> 00:55:24,319
also mean courage

1526
00:55:27,510 --> 00:55:26,319
standing up for what you think is right

1527
00:55:29,349 --> 00:55:27,520
not being a pushover

1528
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:29,359
all of those giving when you think about

1529
00:55:32,470 --> 00:55:31,680
nice is not like a patsy strategy nice

1530
00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:32,480
can be

1531
00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:34,960
there's tough forms of niceness but uh

1532
00:55:39,510 --> 00:55:36,480
but no it's what's it's what's

1533
00:55:41,190 --> 00:55:39,520
what's best for all of us it's my wife

1534
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:41,200
sorry that's all right do you want to

1535
00:55:46,309 --> 00:55:42,960
see if you can get that flying

1536
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:46,319
sure because you're an expert at that so

1537
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:47,440
i think that's your true color actually

1538
00:55:51,829 --> 00:55:49,680
it's my wife who's the real expert but

1539
00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:51,839
and you know she studies birds and she

1540
00:55:54,230 --> 00:55:53,760
actually catches birds in nets like this

1541
00:55:56,069 --> 00:55:54,240
and

1542
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:56,079
it's like quidditch it's just amazing i

1543
00:56:00,230 --> 00:55:57,520
was wondering about the books

1544
00:56:05,349 --> 00:56:00,240
i said the bird books yeah why do we

1545
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:08,710
you mentioned that we would need to

1546
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:10,480
take our tribalism and apply to the

1547
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:13,359
globe now when i hear people say what's

1548
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:14,079
wrong with us

1549
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:16,960
it's tribalism that the left the radical

1550
00:56:21,030 --> 00:56:18,240
left and the alt-right

1551
00:56:22,470 --> 00:56:21,040
are taking us to our tribal roots but

1552
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:22,480
you're saying tribalism

1553
00:56:25,030 --> 00:56:23,920
might be the answer so are we using the

1554
00:56:26,549 --> 00:56:25,040
same word to describe two different

1555
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:26,559
things or do you have a different view i

1556
00:56:33,109 --> 00:56:30,400
i mean there's many ways to skin the

1557
00:56:34,789 --> 00:56:33,119
somatic cat but i think that tribalism

1558
00:56:36,549 --> 00:56:34,799
is just fine as long as we regard

1559
00:56:37,589 --> 00:56:36,559
ourselves as part of a global tribe then

1560
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:37,599
there we are

1561
00:56:41,349 --> 00:56:40,400
we do need a strong sense of us but let

1562
00:56:44,950 --> 00:56:41,359
it be everyone

1563
00:56:48,230 --> 00:56:44,960
and also um nature

1564
00:56:49,829 --> 00:56:48,240
as well so let that be our tribe i think

1565
00:56:51,109 --> 00:56:49,839
that might be one of the most intuitive

1566
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:51,119
ways to

1567
00:56:55,190 --> 00:56:53,359
to um to describe it and we're so

1568
00:56:57,430 --> 00:56:55,200
flexible about our social identities

1569
00:56:59,750 --> 00:56:57,440
that's another thing that needs to be

1570
00:57:01,190 --> 00:56:59,760
said all of our social identities are

1571
00:57:03,349 --> 00:57:01,200
socially

1572
00:57:04,950 --> 00:57:03,359
constructed we imagine our groups and

1573
00:57:07,109 --> 00:57:04,960
then we function

1574
00:57:09,670 --> 00:57:07,119
within them and so that means it's not

1575
00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:09,680
so much of a stretch of the imagination

1576
00:57:15,910 --> 00:57:12,720
to think of ourselves as part of

1577
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:15,920
a global tribe

1578
00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:17,920
not hard you mentioned that you had some

1579
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:18,799
problems with the social

1580
00:57:22,069 --> 00:57:20,640
constructionists and i want to know

1581
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:22,079
first of all if you could define what

1582
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:24,319
social constructivism is and then

1583
00:57:29,109 --> 00:57:27,440
what do you see as its problems

1584
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:29,119
well i wrote an essay a while back

1585
00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:30,559
called evolutionary social

1586
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:32,720
constructivism

1587
00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:35,839
isn't wrong

1588
00:57:39,349 --> 00:57:38,160
it just has to be approached from an

1589
00:57:42,950 --> 00:57:39,359
evolutionary

1590
00:57:43,910 --> 00:57:42,960
perspective most social constructivists

1591
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:43,920
see themselves

1592
00:57:50,349 --> 00:57:48,640
as opposed to evolutionary

1593
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:50,359
thinking this goes back to the days of

1594
00:57:56,950 --> 00:57:53,200
sociobiology when ed wilson

1595
00:58:01,910 --> 00:57:56,960
wrote the book sociobiology in 1975

1596
00:58:04,549 --> 00:58:01,920
and he was branded as

1597
00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:04,559
being a genetic determinist and the

1598
00:58:09,030 --> 00:58:06,400
alternative to sociobiology

1599
00:58:11,190 --> 00:58:09,040
was social constructivism it was the

1600
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:11,200
idea that we are a cultural species that

1601
00:58:15,910 --> 00:58:13,680
we um

1602
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:15,920
were very flexible basically were

1603
00:58:18,789 --> 00:58:17,920
capable of coming up with any behavior

1604
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:18,799
any

1605
00:58:23,589 --> 00:58:21,119
social arrangement and this was thought

1606
00:58:26,870 --> 00:58:23,599
to be an opposition

1607
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:26,880
to sociobiology

1608
00:58:31,030 --> 00:58:28,720
now what we can say is yes we are a

1609
00:58:33,589 --> 00:58:31,040
cultural species

1610
00:58:35,829 --> 00:58:33,599
and we do construct our social

1611
00:58:39,190 --> 00:58:35,839
environments so we are very flexible not

1612
00:58:41,910 --> 00:58:39,200
infinitely flexible but very flexible in

1613
00:58:42,390 --> 00:58:41,920
what we can become as individuals and

1614
00:58:45,190 --> 00:58:42,400
and

1615
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:45,200
societies but all of that is a matter of

1616
00:58:49,829 --> 00:58:47,680
cultural evolution

1617
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:49,839
and so we need to expand evolutionary

1618
00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:52,240
thinking beyond genetic evolution

1619
00:58:56,470 --> 00:58:55,280
to include cultural evolution and it's

1620
00:58:59,829 --> 00:58:56,480
at that point that

1621
00:59:03,270 --> 00:58:59,839
social constructivism will be seen

1622
00:59:05,030 --> 00:59:03,280
as a evolutionary topic and the term

1623
00:59:07,510 --> 00:59:05,040
niche construction

1624
00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:07,520
which is a term that originated within

1625
00:59:10,710 --> 00:59:08,720
evolutionary

1626
00:59:13,109 --> 00:59:10,720
theory is basically another word for

1627
00:59:16,230 --> 00:59:13,119
social

1628
00:59:19,589 --> 00:59:16,240
construction at least in the human

1629
00:59:21,910 --> 00:59:19,599
human case so yes we are

1630
00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:21,920
cultural species we do construct our

1631
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:24,160
societies but please don't think that

1632
00:59:27,670 --> 00:59:25,920
as something which is somehow outside

1633
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:27,680
the orbit of

1634
00:59:31,309 --> 00:59:30,160
evolutionary thinking what are the

1635
00:59:35,190 --> 00:59:31,319
problems that you have with

1636
00:59:39,270 --> 00:59:35,200
post-modernists if any

1637
00:59:41,109 --> 00:59:39,280
i think that i actually look for

1638
00:59:42,470 --> 00:59:41,119
the baby in the bathwater of most

1639
00:59:44,150 --> 00:59:42,480
traditions

1640
00:59:47,990 --> 00:59:44,160
one phrase that i like from an

1641
00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:48,000
evolutionist named aj kane is that

1642
00:59:52,549 --> 00:59:50,160
only the simplest mind can believe that

1643
00:59:56,470 --> 00:59:52,559
in a great controversy one side is mere

1644
01:00:00,069 --> 00:59:56,480
folly and so when smart people disagree

1645
01:00:02,549 --> 01:00:00,079
then there's probably a baby somewhere

1646
01:00:03,829 --> 01:00:02,559
in the bath water but then of course

1647
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:03,839
there's also

1648
01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:07,599
the bathwater and so postmodernism

1649
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:09,280
social constructivism

1650
01:00:13,109 --> 01:00:12,160
all of these things i think part of the

1651
01:00:16,230 --> 01:00:13,119
baby

1652
01:00:17,910 --> 01:00:16,240
what's legitimate is

1653
01:00:19,990 --> 01:00:17,920
what's called a thick description of a

1654
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:20,000
given culture

1655
01:00:23,430 --> 01:00:22,319
recognition that a culture is something

1656
01:00:25,829 --> 01:00:23,440
which is very com

1657
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:25,839
complicated and has to be understood in

1658
01:00:31,030 --> 01:00:27,040
some kind of

1659
01:00:32,789 --> 01:00:31,040
contextual way and all of that is great

1660
01:00:36,150 --> 01:00:32,799
because it's true

1661
01:00:39,430 --> 01:00:36,160
so i love that part but also there's

1662
01:00:41,910 --> 01:00:39,440
in some ways often the bath water

1663
01:00:43,190 --> 01:00:41,920
is a denial of anything that can count

1664
01:00:45,750 --> 01:00:43,200
as objective

1665
01:00:47,589 --> 01:00:45,760
reality that there's no such thing as

1666
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:47,599
objective facts for example

1667
01:00:56,309 --> 01:00:50,960
that the the kind of body of facts that

1668
01:01:00,789 --> 01:00:56,319
we associate with science has no more

1669
01:01:06,390 --> 01:01:04,069
construction and so i think that when we

1670
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:06,400
talk about now in the post-truth society

1671
01:01:10,150 --> 01:01:08,880
and and fake news and a president that

1672
01:01:13,430 --> 01:01:10,160
basically lies

1673
01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:13,440
every day of his life um

1674
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:16,160
is in some sense attributed to the

1675
01:01:21,910 --> 01:01:17,359
postmodern

1676
01:01:23,990 --> 01:01:21,920
tradition which became anti-anti-science

1677
01:01:28,150 --> 01:01:24,000
and you know in in

1678
01:01:30,549 --> 01:01:28,160
um in the humanities in anthropology and

1679
01:01:33,430 --> 01:01:30,559
and linguistics and and cultural studies

1680
01:01:35,670 --> 01:01:33,440
uh very much cleaves along lines of uh

1681
01:01:36,870 --> 01:01:35,680
of a branch that is more or less science

1682
01:01:40,789 --> 01:01:36,880
friendly

1683
01:01:45,190 --> 01:01:40,799
and and a branch which is uh science uh

1684
01:01:49,349 --> 01:01:45,200
um unfriendly and and so what we've lost

1685
01:01:52,789 --> 01:01:49,359
what we've lost not everywhere but um

1686
01:01:56,230 --> 01:01:52,799
um in many in many contexts

1687
01:01:57,910 --> 01:01:56,240
is this idea that there's um

1688
01:02:00,630 --> 01:01:57,920
there's facts of the world that we have

1689
01:02:04,630 --> 01:02:00,640
to that we have to discover and

1690
01:02:07,029 --> 01:02:04,640
and and hold each other uh

1691
01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:07,039
accountable to um i have another quote

1692
01:02:12,870 --> 01:02:09,440
from the dalai lama that i love

1693
01:02:16,789 --> 01:02:14,710
anyone who defies the authority of

1694
01:02:19,589 --> 01:02:16,799
empirical evidence is not worthy of

1695
01:02:21,029 --> 01:02:19,599
critical engagement in a dialogue

1696
01:02:23,270 --> 01:02:21,039
if you're just making stuff up and if

1697
01:02:24,549 --> 01:02:23,280
you're denying

1698
01:02:27,670 --> 01:02:24,559
what's out there you're not worth

1699
01:02:29,430 --> 01:02:27,680
talking to is what that

1700
01:02:31,190 --> 01:02:29,440
is what that means and so i need we need

1701
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:31,200
to recover the idea that there is a

1702
01:02:34,069 --> 01:02:32,480
world out there

1703
01:02:36,470 --> 01:02:34,079
it's independent of our own meaning

1704
01:02:39,029 --> 01:02:36,480
systems our own symbolic systems and

1705
01:02:42,309 --> 01:02:39,039
that creates a challenge of somehow

1706
01:02:44,069 --> 01:02:42,319
our meaning systems whatever they are

1707
01:02:46,630 --> 01:02:44,079
whether they're religious or not

1708
01:02:48,390 --> 01:02:46,640
everyone has one

1709
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:48,400
and it is not a direct reflection of the

1710
01:02:51,589 --> 01:02:50,160
real world but nevertheless there is a

1711
01:02:53,589 --> 01:02:51,599
real world out there

1712
01:02:55,510 --> 01:02:53,599
and we can apprehend it using the tools

1713
01:02:58,309 --> 01:02:55,520
that we typically associate with

1714
01:02:59,430 --> 01:02:58,319
science and so and so that has to be

1715
01:03:06,870 --> 01:02:59,440
part of the

1716
01:03:08,390 --> 01:03:06,880
rules for our for our discourse it has

1717
01:03:10,150 --> 01:03:08,400
to be science based

1718
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:10,160
but it also has to be smart about how

1719
01:03:15,349 --> 01:03:12,000
difficult it is for us to

1720
01:03:16,870 --> 01:03:15,359
um apprehend the the real world and how

1721
01:03:19,990 --> 01:03:16,880
tempted we are

1722
01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:20,000
at a deep psychological level in making

1723
01:03:25,109 --> 01:03:21,200
stuff up

1724
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:25,119
that supports our world

1725
01:03:29,109 --> 01:03:27,119
views there's a deep statement there

1726
01:03:30,390 --> 01:03:29,119
about epistemology basically the nature

1727
01:03:32,950 --> 01:03:30,400
of knowledge from

1728
01:03:35,109 --> 01:03:32,960
an evolutionary perspective evolution as

1729
01:03:38,069 --> 01:03:35,119
transformative things to say about

1730
01:03:39,910 --> 01:03:38,079
about ethics and morality and

1731
01:03:41,750 --> 01:03:39,920
epistemology all of the major branches

1732
01:03:43,589 --> 01:03:41,760
of philosophy

1733
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:43,599
what do you think of the post-modern

1734
01:03:46,549 --> 01:03:45,440
inspired fields like women's studies

1735
01:03:49,589 --> 01:03:46,559
gender studies

1736
01:03:51,190 --> 01:03:49,599
sex fat studies sexual studies what do

1737
01:03:53,990 --> 01:03:51,200
you think of

1738
01:03:54,789 --> 01:03:54,000
the idea that they're putting forth that

1739
01:03:58,069 --> 01:03:54,799
separates us

1740
01:03:59,829 --> 01:03:58,079
into different groups and then therefore

1741
01:04:01,190 --> 01:03:59,839
our tribal circuitry quote-unquote

1742
01:04:03,190 --> 01:04:01,200
tribal circuitry is being

1743
01:04:04,710 --> 01:04:03,200
hijacked and now it's us versus them in

1744
01:04:06,549 --> 01:04:04,720
different groups i know we've talked

1745
01:04:07,750 --> 01:04:06,559
about this earlier

1746
01:04:09,349 --> 01:04:07,760
what do you think of that is that true

1747
01:04:10,069 --> 01:04:09,359
what is this tribal circuitry that's

1748
01:04:12,230 --> 01:04:10,079
being

1749
01:04:14,230 --> 01:04:12,240
triggered can you first expand on the

1750
01:04:17,510 --> 01:04:14,240
tribal circuitry that some

1751
01:04:19,109 --> 01:04:17,520
evolutionary biologists talk about

1752
01:04:21,029 --> 01:04:19,119
obviously we can't speak for them but

1753
01:04:23,670 --> 01:04:21,039
whatever you think that term means

1754
01:04:24,230 --> 01:04:23,680
what is this tribal circuitry and how

1755
01:04:28,150 --> 01:04:24,240
are these

1756
01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:30,069
utilizing that for something that's not

1757
01:04:34,230 --> 01:04:32,160
necessarily good for the whole

1758
01:04:35,910 --> 01:04:34,240
so again let's talk about the baby

1759
01:04:39,430 --> 01:04:35,920
before we talk about the

1760
01:04:42,470 --> 01:04:39,440
bath water the baby of these

1761
01:04:46,870 --> 01:04:42,480
identities is that they're pointing out

1762
01:04:50,950 --> 01:04:46,880
that the mainstream worldview

1763
01:04:53,430 --> 01:04:50,960
is in fact extremely provincial

1764
01:04:54,470 --> 01:04:53,440
it's the world view of a certain

1765
01:04:58,710 --> 01:04:54,480
privileged

1766
01:05:01,029 --> 01:04:58,720
culture say white european male

1767
01:05:02,150 --> 01:05:01,039
culture is interpreting reality for

1768
01:05:04,950 --> 01:05:02,160
everyone

1769
01:05:05,349 --> 01:05:04,960
when in fact it's extremely provincial

1770
01:05:08,549 --> 01:05:05,359
and

1771
01:05:10,630 --> 01:05:08,559
ultimately self-serving

1772
01:05:13,349 --> 01:05:10,640
and you know i think you know that

1773
01:05:18,630 --> 01:05:13,359
there's an acronym that's been coined

1774
01:05:22,309 --> 01:05:18,640
weird a white educated industrial

1775
01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:22,319
rich and democratic which is

1776
01:05:27,109 --> 01:05:24,880
the dominating culture that's what i

1777
01:05:30,230 --> 01:05:27,119
think you're referring to as western

1778
01:05:34,630 --> 01:05:30,240
culture and it interprets itself

1779
01:05:37,349 --> 01:05:34,640
as human nature and the human condition

1780
01:05:39,349 --> 01:05:37,359
and this term was coined by my colleague

1781
01:05:41,750 --> 01:05:39,359
joseph penric at harvard

1782
01:05:42,950 --> 01:05:41,760
university and it's getting a lot of

1783
01:05:45,750 --> 01:05:42,960
attention now because

1784
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:45,760
so much research that's done primarily

1785
01:05:50,390 --> 01:05:48,079
in western nations

1786
01:05:52,390 --> 01:05:50,400
and in with college students or even

1787
01:05:53,750 --> 01:05:52,400
when it's done internationally

1788
01:05:55,270 --> 01:05:53,760
it's done in those segments of the

1789
01:05:57,510 --> 01:05:55,280
population that have thoroughly bought

1790
01:06:00,549 --> 01:05:57,520
into western market

1791
01:06:00,789 --> 01:06:00,559
economies so much psychological research

1792
01:06:03,109 --> 01:06:00,799
and

1793
01:06:04,630 --> 01:06:03,119
research of all kinds has been done on

1794
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:04,640
this narrow slice

1795
01:06:10,470 --> 01:06:08,640
of humanity and and it's not general

1796
01:06:11,990 --> 01:06:10,480
it's not general at all and so it's a

1797
01:06:14,789 --> 01:06:12,000
major

1798
01:06:16,230 --> 01:06:14,799
initiative now which is gaining steam is

1799
01:06:18,549 --> 01:06:16,240
that if you want to say something about

1800
01:06:21,589 --> 01:06:18,559
human nature you cannot confine it

1801
01:06:24,069 --> 01:06:21,599
to weird people

1802
01:06:25,029 --> 01:06:24,079
people weird societies so just now on

1803
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:25,039
twitter you get

1804
01:06:29,109 --> 01:06:27,760
for example a result that came out of

1805
01:06:32,309 --> 01:06:29,119
research is that

1806
01:06:33,750 --> 01:06:32,319
you know in any population x percent our

1807
01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:33,760
cooperators

1808
01:06:40,870 --> 01:06:37,280
y presenter defectors whatever

1809
01:06:47,829 --> 01:06:44,230
did you get it oh i thought i did

1810
01:06:49,109 --> 01:06:47,839
man i should have no that's all right

1811
01:06:51,430 --> 01:06:49,119
um so you're saying that there's

1812
01:06:52,950 --> 01:06:51,440
research on twitter not on twitter it's

1813
01:06:54,390 --> 01:06:52,960
being reported on

1814
01:06:56,390 --> 01:06:54,400
on twitter this was thought to be very

1815
01:06:58,309 --> 01:06:56,400
very general many many studies show that

1816
01:07:01,109 --> 01:06:58,319
there's the same kind of breakdown of

1817
01:07:03,029 --> 01:07:01,119
cooperators and defectors and uh and uh

1818
01:07:06,150 --> 01:07:03,039
hold on a minute

1819
01:07:08,710 --> 01:07:06,160
and um this is too terribly distracting

1820
01:07:10,390 --> 01:07:08,720
isn't it oh it's okay you can do it

1821
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:10,400
come on little guy i'll just move a

1822
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:12,160
little bit

1823
01:07:21,029 --> 01:07:19,349
got him so there's some research that's

1824
01:07:22,710 --> 01:07:21,039
popularized on twitter as being

1825
01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:22,720
also the ultimate also the ultimatum

1826
01:07:26,710 --> 01:07:24,400
game the famous ultimating game i give

1827
01:07:29,910 --> 01:07:26,720
you ten dollars

1828
01:07:31,270 --> 01:07:29,920
and you can share a portion with a

1829
01:07:35,029 --> 01:07:31,280
second person

1830
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:35,039
is to accept your offer

1831
01:07:39,910 --> 01:07:37,920
or to or to reject it in which case

1832
01:07:41,990 --> 01:07:39,920
nobody gets anything

1833
01:07:43,029 --> 01:07:42,000
and economic wisdom held that the first

1834
01:07:45,829 --> 01:07:43,039
person should

1835
01:07:47,510 --> 01:07:45,839
should share as little as possible but

1836
01:07:47,829 --> 01:07:47,520
knowing that the second person would

1837
01:07:50,230 --> 01:07:47,839
take

1838
01:07:51,589 --> 01:07:50,240
anything over nothing at all that's the

1839
01:07:53,670 --> 01:07:51,599
economic wisdom

1840
01:07:55,750 --> 01:07:53,680
uh the result of the actual experiment

1841
01:07:56,789 --> 01:07:55,760
is is that no people have a sense of

1842
01:07:59,510 --> 01:07:56,799
fairness

1843
01:08:01,589 --> 01:07:59,520
and unless the offer is fair the person

1844
01:08:04,950 --> 01:08:01,599
would rather have nothing

1845
01:08:07,349 --> 01:08:04,960
than to accept an unfair offer

1846
01:08:09,270 --> 01:08:07,359
and so this was the new normal was that

1847
01:08:12,630 --> 01:08:09,280
that's the way homo

1848
01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:12,640
sapiens is well come to find out and

1849
01:08:14,789 --> 01:08:14,000
this is actually the work of joseph

1850
01:08:16,229 --> 01:08:14,799
henrik

1851
01:08:18,870 --> 01:08:16,239
is that when he played that same

1852
01:08:21,110 --> 01:08:18,880
ultimatum game in societies around the

1853
01:08:24,789 --> 01:08:21,120
world including small-scale

1854
01:08:26,229 --> 01:08:24,799
societies he found tons of variation

1855
01:08:28,550 --> 01:08:26,239
all kinds of variation that was

1856
01:08:32,229 --> 01:08:28,560
unexplained and so that was what it

1857
01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:32,239
meant to go beyond weird societies

1858
01:08:39,269 --> 01:08:35,920
to sample the richness of

1859
01:08:41,269 --> 01:08:39,279
human cultural diversity

1860
01:08:42,950 --> 01:08:41,279
so if we get back to identity politics

1861
01:08:44,470 --> 01:08:42,960
what you have is basically members of

1862
01:08:47,510 --> 01:08:44,480
the population

1863
01:08:48,229 --> 01:08:47,520
which are marginalized they might come

1864
01:08:50,630 --> 01:08:48,239
from

1865
01:08:52,229 --> 01:08:50,640
cultural traditions historically that

1866
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:52,239
are not part of western culture or they

1867
01:08:55,749 --> 01:08:53,759
might come from western

1868
01:08:57,749 --> 01:08:55,759
cultural traditions but marginalized

1869
01:09:01,189 --> 01:08:57,759
people such as women or

1870
01:09:03,349 --> 01:09:01,199
or gays or or anyone who's being

1871
01:09:04,870 --> 01:09:03,359
shamed or whatever okay and their

1872
01:09:06,950 --> 01:09:04,880
experience is very

1873
01:09:09,669 --> 01:09:06,960
different and they want you to know that

1874
01:09:12,550 --> 01:09:09,679
so basically they are claiming

1875
01:09:14,470 --> 01:09:12,560
authentically that the world as seen

1876
01:09:17,990 --> 01:09:14,480
through the eyes of

1877
01:09:19,430 --> 01:09:18,000
privileged people is not actually the

1878
01:09:21,030 --> 01:09:19,440
world that they experience and they're

1879
01:09:25,829 --> 01:09:21,040
also

1880
01:09:29,430 --> 01:09:25,839
claiming justice that

1881
01:09:32,789 --> 01:09:29,440
they they need to be more

1882
01:09:35,430 --> 01:09:32,799
fully participants in a moral society

1883
01:09:37,590 --> 01:09:35,440
and both of those things can be

1884
01:09:39,110 --> 01:09:37,600
correct so that's a pretty big baby in

1885
01:09:44,070 --> 01:09:39,120
the bathwater

1886
01:09:46,870 --> 01:09:44,080
identity politics

1887
01:09:49,990 --> 01:09:46,880
if it becomes highly divisive there has

1888
01:09:53,749 --> 01:09:50,000
to be some sense in which there's a we

1889
01:09:55,510 --> 01:09:53,759
that we can become a part of and if you

1890
01:09:56,950 --> 01:09:55,520
lose out of that then it becomes only

1891
01:10:00,229 --> 01:09:56,960
conflictual

1892
01:10:05,590 --> 01:10:00,239
so there must be some working towards

1893
01:10:12,310 --> 01:10:09,510
a larger scale of of uh of cooperation

1894
01:10:13,910 --> 01:10:12,320
so can you describe this tribal

1895
01:10:16,070 --> 01:10:13,920
circuitry

1896
01:10:17,350 --> 01:10:16,080
what is it when certain biologists say

1897
01:10:19,669 --> 01:10:17,360
there's a tribal

1898
01:10:21,430 --> 01:10:19,679
part of our brain and when we're divided

1899
01:10:22,950 --> 01:10:21,440
up into groups we are

1900
01:10:24,709 --> 01:10:22,960
hijacking that or we're turning it on

1901
01:10:26,790 --> 01:10:24,719
and now we're against them

1902
01:10:28,229 --> 01:10:26,800
what is that what do they mean well i

1903
01:10:30,550 --> 01:10:28,239
think that i would be

1904
01:10:32,310 --> 01:10:30,560
more or less in agreement with what many

1905
01:10:34,310 --> 01:10:32,320
people would say to that that

1906
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:34,320
we're such a group living species that

1907
01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:36,239
we're always looking for

1908
01:10:41,270 --> 01:10:39,760
who's us who's the what is the group

1909
01:10:43,110 --> 01:10:41,280
that i'm in

1910
01:10:44,630 --> 01:10:43,120
and that i'm supposed to be a member of

1911
01:10:48,550 --> 01:10:44,640
and supposed to be

1912
01:10:51,030 --> 01:10:48,560
cooperating that's what

1913
01:10:53,910 --> 01:10:51,040
and we all we all need that just in

1914
01:10:57,669 --> 01:10:53,920
order to function in any particular

1915
01:10:59,189 --> 01:10:57,679
in any particular context the salience

1916
01:11:03,189 --> 01:10:59,199
of the tribe

1917
01:11:06,390 --> 01:11:03,199
grows with the stakes basically for

1918
01:11:08,950 --> 01:11:06,400
survival and and reproduction so

1919
01:11:11,350 --> 01:11:08,960
if you're uh if you in a really

1920
01:11:13,189 --> 01:11:11,360
existentially insecure situation

1921
01:11:15,430 --> 01:11:13,199
where your own life is threatened for

1922
01:11:18,229 --> 01:11:15,440
example or the life of your people

1923
01:11:18,950 --> 01:11:18,239
is threatened then that psychology of

1924
01:11:22,950 --> 01:11:18,960
being

1925
01:11:27,270 --> 01:11:22,960
threatened

1926
01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:27,280
is becomes more and more and more uh

1927
01:11:31,910 --> 01:11:29,199
salient and my colleague michelle

1928
01:11:35,990 --> 01:11:33,669
wrote a book called rulemakers rule

1929
01:11:39,110 --> 01:11:36,000
breakers and she does research on

1930
01:11:39,430 --> 01:11:39,120
on a continuum of cultural variation

1931
01:11:42,709 --> 01:11:39,440
which

1932
01:11:44,550 --> 01:11:42,719
from tight to loose so a tight culture

1933
01:11:45,350 --> 01:11:44,560
is one that has very strong norms that

1934
01:11:47,830 --> 01:11:45,360
are

1935
01:11:49,270 --> 01:11:47,840
enforced by punishment if you're a

1936
01:11:51,030 --> 01:11:49,280
member of that culture then you are

1937
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:51,040
expected to do certain things and if you

1938
01:11:54,950 --> 01:11:51,840
don't

1939
01:11:56,709 --> 01:11:54,960
then there will be big consequences

1940
01:11:58,790 --> 01:11:56,719
okay a loose culture is much more

1941
01:12:00,870 --> 01:11:58,800
flexibility in what you can

1942
01:12:03,750 --> 01:12:00,880
do a lot more elbow room in which you

1943
01:12:07,590 --> 01:12:03,760
want to do to explore your own options

1944
01:12:09,270 --> 01:12:07,600
and so on and that continuum from tight

1945
01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:09,280
to loose

1946
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:11,040
more or less is adapted to an

1947
01:12:14,550 --> 01:12:13,199
environmental continuum of existential

1948
01:12:16,870 --> 01:12:14,560
security

1949
01:12:18,550 --> 01:12:16,880
so if life is safe and secure life is

1950
01:12:22,229 --> 01:12:18,560
good nobody's threatening

1951
01:12:25,669 --> 01:12:22,239
us then why shouldn't we explore our

1952
01:12:28,149 --> 01:12:25,679
options the optimal social arrangement

1953
01:12:29,430 --> 01:12:28,159
for a safe and secure environment is a

1954
01:12:33,350 --> 01:12:29,440
loose

1955
01:12:36,390 --> 01:12:33,360
culture but if it's really life or death

1956
01:12:38,630 --> 01:12:36,400
then we have to have extreme solidarity

1957
01:12:40,310 --> 01:12:38,640
and what you do you've got to do this

1958
01:12:41,990 --> 01:12:40,320
you have to be part of us and so on and

1959
01:12:43,189 --> 01:12:42,000
so forth you also have to prepare to

1960
01:12:46,310 --> 01:12:43,199
sacrifice

1961
01:12:50,229 --> 01:12:46,320
your life if if

1962
01:12:53,910 --> 01:12:50,239
necessary and so you're not free to

1963
01:12:57,750 --> 01:12:53,920
to do this or or or that

1964
01:13:02,830 --> 01:12:57,760
and so um that

1965
01:13:08,390 --> 01:13:05,030
environmental

1966
01:13:11,590 --> 01:13:08,400
basis explains a lot it also explains

1967
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:13,189
things go wrong in modern life that's

1968
01:13:17,830 --> 01:13:15,040
essentially insecure

1969
01:13:20,790 --> 01:13:17,840
things are the more we become tight in

1970
01:13:24,470 --> 01:13:22,550
orientation and we find it very

1971
01:13:26,470 --> 01:13:24,480
difficult to be flexible accepting of

1972
01:13:28,709 --> 01:13:26,480
other positions and so on

1973
01:13:29,590 --> 01:13:28,719
and so forth so paradoxically if we want

1974
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:29,600
to

1975
01:13:35,510 --> 01:13:33,520
cultivate a safe and secure environment

1976
01:13:37,510 --> 01:13:35,520
and a loose culture which in some ways i

1977
01:13:39,189 --> 01:13:37,520
think you could say a loose culture

1978
01:13:41,510 --> 01:13:39,199
is better than a tight culture because

1979
01:13:43,350 --> 01:13:41,520
of the environmental condition that's

1980
01:13:46,310 --> 01:13:43,360
a safe and secure environment is better

1981
01:13:49,510 --> 01:13:46,320
than a dangerous

1982
01:13:51,189 --> 01:13:49,520
environment so uh

1983
01:13:52,790 --> 01:13:51,199
so one reason why things have become

1984
01:13:56,310 --> 01:13:52,800
worse

1985
01:13:57,910 --> 01:13:56,320
culturally and more divisive culturally

1986
01:13:59,590 --> 01:13:57,920
is because they've become more

1987
01:14:02,149 --> 01:13:59,600
existentially

1988
01:14:02,790 --> 01:14:02,159
insecure and that i think this explains

1989
01:14:05,830 --> 01:14:02,800
for example

1990
01:14:08,229 --> 01:14:05,840
when we talk about the right um

1991
01:14:09,750 --> 01:14:08,239
and nationalistic movements and so on

1992
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:09,760
and so forth i mean the reasons are

1993
01:14:13,030 --> 01:14:11,120
plain enough

1994
01:14:14,870 --> 01:14:13,040
members of many societies feel that

1995
01:14:16,709 --> 01:14:14,880
they're not they're not sharing the

1996
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:16,719
benefits of the

1997
01:14:23,590 --> 01:14:20,640
of the society if you're in france or

1998
01:14:25,590 --> 01:14:23,600
england or or whatever and you're just a

1999
01:14:27,590 --> 01:14:25,600
an average bloke in the

2000
01:14:29,189 --> 01:14:27,600
and and then you see immigrants coming

2001
01:14:30,550 --> 01:14:29,199
in and taking jobs and you don't have a

2002
01:14:33,350 --> 01:14:30,560
very good

2003
01:14:36,470 --> 01:14:33,360
job it's what's not working for you the

2004
01:14:38,630 --> 01:14:36,480
global european union's not working for

2005
01:14:40,310 --> 01:14:38,640
for you why shouldn't you stand up for

2006
01:14:41,350 --> 01:14:40,320
something that's more recognizable as

2007
01:14:48,229 --> 01:14:41,360
your

2008
01:14:49,669 --> 01:14:48,239
many ways and this is not original a lot

2009
01:14:50,950 --> 01:14:49,679
of the problems associated with this

2010
01:14:53,430 --> 01:14:50,960
fragmentation is

2011
01:14:55,270 --> 01:14:53,440
is based on such things as extreme

2012
01:14:58,149 --> 01:14:55,280
inequality

2013
01:14:59,430 --> 01:14:58,159
the global order including the european

2014
01:15:03,030 --> 01:14:59,440
union and

2015
01:15:04,950 --> 01:15:03,040
and and all of that it's not it's not

2016
01:15:07,590 --> 01:15:04,960
it's not working well for the average

2017
01:15:10,950 --> 01:15:07,600
why should they be invested

2018
01:15:12,790 --> 01:15:10,960
in it what's in it for them and so

2019
01:15:13,990 --> 01:15:12,800
there's some sense in which the solution

2020
01:15:17,189 --> 01:15:14,000
has to be

2021
01:15:20,070 --> 01:15:17,199
um a uh

2022
01:15:20,950 --> 01:15:20,080
result in in some of these global

2023
01:15:24,310 --> 01:15:20,960
problems of

2024
01:15:26,310 --> 01:15:24,320
of uh income inequality of

2025
01:15:27,350 --> 01:15:26,320
unregulated capitalism if we don't solve

2026
01:15:29,910 --> 01:15:27,360
that problem

2027
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:29,920
then we shouldn't expect these solutions

2028
01:15:33,910 --> 01:15:31,600
to these other

2029
01:15:34,870 --> 01:15:33,920
problems you mentioned existential

2030
01:15:37,510 --> 01:15:34,880
security

2031
01:15:39,350 --> 01:15:37,520
and you're saying that the higher the

2032
01:15:41,830 --> 01:15:39,360
level of inequality

2033
01:15:42,550 --> 01:15:41,840
the less existential security we have

2034
01:15:44,709 --> 01:15:42,560
yes

2035
01:15:46,149 --> 01:15:44,719
and that's in part because back to

2036
01:15:47,910 --> 01:15:46,159
relative fitness it doesn't really

2037
01:15:51,189 --> 01:15:47,920
matter that we're

2038
01:15:52,709 --> 01:15:51,199
affluent we compare ourselves

2039
01:15:54,790 --> 01:15:52,719
with others there's a lot of research

2040
01:15:59,189 --> 01:15:54,800
knowing that how

2041
01:16:01,520 --> 01:15:59,199
how good you feel with your about your

2042
01:16:02,709 --> 01:16:01,530
life it depends on

2043
01:16:05,910 --> 01:16:02,719
[Music]

2044
01:16:07,750 --> 01:16:05,920
your lot compared to others a lot of

2045
01:16:09,669 --> 01:16:07,760
ills are attributed

2046
01:16:11,350 --> 01:16:09,679
to so how do we get over that if that's

2047
01:16:13,590 --> 01:16:11,360
so ingrained in us

2048
01:16:15,430 --> 01:16:13,600
and also why was that selected for if we

2049
01:16:18,310 --> 01:16:15,440
were selected in these small groups

2050
01:16:20,709 --> 01:16:18,320
where cooperation was the norm well in

2051
01:16:24,709 --> 01:16:20,719
those groups there was there was

2052
01:16:26,229 --> 01:16:24,719
a um wasn't the kind of unfair

2053
01:16:29,590 --> 01:16:26,239
inequality

2054
01:16:30,709 --> 01:16:29,600
that uh that exists today in the first

2055
01:16:34,149 --> 01:16:30,719
place there's a strong sense of

2056
01:16:37,189 --> 01:16:34,159
egalitarianism where we're all

2057
01:16:38,950 --> 01:16:37,199
equal i'm not better than you and

2058
01:16:41,189 --> 01:16:38,960
also there wasn't a lot of difference in

2059
01:16:43,750 --> 01:16:41,199
material

2060
01:16:45,430 --> 01:16:43,760
wealth at that time and if someone was

2061
01:16:46,950 --> 01:16:45,440
given a leadership role it was based on

2062
01:16:48,790 --> 01:16:46,960
their contribution

2063
01:16:50,310 --> 01:16:48,800
to the group yes you'll be your leader

2064
01:16:50,950 --> 01:16:50,320
and yet that might make you wealthier

2065
01:16:54,550 --> 01:16:50,960
and

2066
01:16:57,510 --> 01:16:54,560
actually serving us in some

2067
01:16:57,990 --> 01:16:57,520
in some sense then then we won't follow

2068
01:16:59,830 --> 01:16:58,000
you

2069
01:17:01,669 --> 01:16:59,840
anymore much more bottom-up control of

2070
01:17:03,350 --> 01:17:01,679
those societies than you might

2071
01:17:05,030 --> 01:17:03,360
than you might think and even big man

2072
01:17:06,390 --> 01:17:05,040
societies and societies that look

2073
01:17:09,590 --> 01:17:06,400
hierarchical

2074
01:17:11,189 --> 01:17:09,600
actually it was like a a almost like a

2075
01:17:13,350 --> 01:17:11,199
banking system in which the wealth of

2076
01:17:16,070 --> 01:17:13,360
the society was accumulated

2077
01:17:17,910 --> 01:17:16,080
in certain families for example or

2078
01:17:20,709 --> 01:17:17,920
temples or something like that

2079
01:17:21,990 --> 01:17:20,719
but it was shared out it was almost like

2080
01:17:23,510 --> 01:17:22,000
a distribution

2081
01:17:25,590 --> 01:17:23,520
and that worked in the small scale

2082
01:17:28,870 --> 01:17:25,600
system that worked for those

2083
01:17:32,149 --> 01:17:28,880
times in and

2084
01:17:35,189 --> 01:17:32,159
and and places so so

2085
01:17:38,550 --> 01:17:35,199
um if you look at modern nations

2086
01:17:40,470 --> 01:17:38,560
and um the ones that work best and the

2087
01:17:41,270 --> 01:17:40,480
nordic countries come up again and again

2088
01:17:44,950 --> 01:17:41,280
as the

2089
01:17:46,709 --> 01:17:44,960
nations that function best in in

2090
01:17:48,709 --> 01:17:46,719
modern life and whenever this gets

2091
01:17:50,709 --> 01:17:48,719
discussed then americans are

2092
01:17:52,870 --> 01:17:50,719
insist that there's no way that you can

2093
01:17:54,950 --> 01:17:52,880
compare those countries with

2094
01:17:56,870 --> 01:17:54,960
america they're too homogenous all this

2095
01:17:58,630 --> 01:17:56,880
kind of stuff which is that

2096
01:18:01,030 --> 01:17:58,640
why is that not a good critique that

2097
01:18:05,590 --> 01:18:01,040
they're too homogeneous

2098
01:18:09,510 --> 01:18:05,600
homogeneity i mean might play some

2099
01:18:12,630 --> 01:18:09,520
goal but it's small

2100
01:18:13,590 --> 01:18:12,640
compared to the equality that's built

2101
01:18:15,270 --> 01:18:13,600
into those

2102
01:18:17,669 --> 01:18:15,280
countries in the first place they're not

2103
01:18:20,950 --> 01:18:17,679
culturally homogenous i

2104
01:18:23,270 --> 01:18:20,960
i study norway quite extensively

2105
01:18:25,110 --> 01:18:23,280
norway is a mountainous country and

2106
01:18:27,270 --> 01:18:25,120
mountainous countries

2107
01:18:28,310 --> 01:18:27,280
always have the effect of cultural

2108
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:28,320
diversity

2109
01:18:32,149 --> 01:18:30,400
right look at new guinea every valley

2110
01:18:33,350 --> 01:18:32,159
and so if you look at norway

2111
01:18:35,189 --> 01:18:33,360
two or three hundred years ago there

2112
01:18:36,550 --> 01:18:35,199
were so many little dialects

2113
01:18:37,910 --> 01:18:36,560
in each and every one of those little

2114
01:18:39,350 --> 01:18:37,920
mountains they weren't even speaking the

2115
01:18:41,030 --> 01:18:39,360
same language

2116
01:18:42,709 --> 01:18:41,040
someone from southern norway couldn't

2117
01:18:46,229 --> 01:18:42,719
understand someone in

2118
01:18:48,630 --> 01:18:46,239
northern how's that culturally

2119
01:18:49,830 --> 01:18:48,640
homogeneous and you had the vikings and

2120
01:18:52,229 --> 01:18:49,840
all these things they're all warring

2121
01:18:54,950 --> 01:18:52,239
with each other

2122
01:18:55,669 --> 01:18:54,960
so it makes a little sense to say that

2123
01:18:58,870 --> 01:18:55,679
there's some

2124
01:19:02,310 --> 01:18:58,880
mysterious kind of cultural um

2125
01:19:03,030 --> 01:19:02,320
homogeneity uh again it's not as if that

2126
01:19:04,790 --> 01:19:03,040
that's

2127
01:19:06,950 --> 01:19:04,800
there's nothing to that but for the most

2128
01:19:07,669 --> 01:19:06,960
part it has to do with the fact that

2129
01:19:10,870 --> 01:19:07,679
there's

2130
01:19:13,990 --> 01:19:10,880
that they've managed to scale up the

2131
01:19:18,229 --> 01:19:14,000
equality and

2132
01:19:20,470 --> 01:19:18,239
and uh well there's much to say but

2133
01:19:21,590 --> 01:19:20,480
we can leave it there for the moment

2134
01:19:22,070 --> 01:19:21,600
earlier we were doing a thought

2135
01:19:23,430 --> 01:19:22,080
experiment

2136
01:19:25,430 --> 01:19:23,440
we're trying to solve the large scale

2137
01:19:26,070 --> 01:19:25,440
problems by by imagining it in a small

2138
01:19:29,430 --> 01:19:26,080
scale

2139
01:19:31,110 --> 01:19:29,440
well if we were to imagine our

2140
01:19:33,030 --> 01:19:31,120
some of our problems with regard to

2141
01:19:34,310 --> 01:19:33,040
income inequality on the global scale

2142
01:19:36,630 --> 01:19:34,320
then we shrink it down to the small

2143
01:19:38,149 --> 01:19:36,640
scale and we think about how did this

2144
01:19:40,550 --> 01:19:38,159
work when it was

2145
01:19:41,830 --> 01:19:40,560
with tribes but then we said we just

2146
01:19:43,510 --> 01:19:41,840
established actually that doesn't work

2147
01:19:44,149 --> 01:19:43,520
because there are no examples of it

2148
01:19:47,030 --> 01:19:44,159
working

2149
01:19:48,709 --> 01:19:47,040
there are no examples of extreme

2150
01:19:50,709 --> 01:19:48,719
inequality within a group of

2151
01:19:52,709 --> 01:19:50,719
well what you find in very small scale

2152
01:19:53,590 --> 01:19:52,719
societies is that they don't allow that

2153
01:19:56,870 --> 01:19:53,600
kind of

2154
01:19:59,830 --> 01:19:56,880
income disparity if somebody

2155
01:20:00,470 --> 01:19:59,840
has a windfall or like especially like

2156
01:20:02,310 --> 01:20:00,480
they

2157
01:20:04,229 --> 01:20:02,320
kill a large game or something like that

2158
01:20:06,149 --> 01:20:04,239
it's scrupulously

2159
01:20:09,189 --> 01:20:06,159
shared but it was with the advent of

2160
01:20:12,629 --> 01:20:09,199
agriculture that that began to change

2161
01:20:14,470 --> 01:20:12,639
and um and as a result

2162
01:20:17,430 --> 01:20:14,480
societies became more despotic this was

2163
01:20:20,709 --> 01:20:17,440
something that peter turchin

2164
01:20:22,709 --> 01:20:20,719
chronicles in his book ultra

2165
01:20:24,070 --> 01:20:22,719
ultra society so that whenever you do

2166
01:20:27,510 --> 01:20:24,080
have an

2167
01:20:29,189 --> 01:20:27,520
a large imbalance of power then it does

2168
01:20:32,390 --> 01:20:29,199
tend to

2169
01:20:33,830 --> 01:20:32,400
corrupt the ability to cooperate within

2170
01:20:39,110 --> 01:20:33,840
that

2171
01:20:40,550 --> 01:20:39,120
it happens all the time there's a

2172
01:20:43,750 --> 01:20:40,560
inevitable

2173
01:20:46,470 --> 01:20:43,760
tendency for it to happen power corrupts

2174
01:20:49,510 --> 01:20:46,480
and absolute power corrupts

2175
01:20:49,990 --> 01:20:49,520
absolutely and the main preventative for

2176
01:20:53,350 --> 01:20:50,000
that

2177
01:20:56,149 --> 01:20:53,360
is between group competition

2178
01:20:57,910 --> 01:20:56,159
a despotic society can work to a degree

2179
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:57,920
but there's a point at which you cannot

2180
01:21:01,270 --> 01:20:58,239
just

2181
01:21:02,790 --> 01:21:01,280
bully people into cooperating with you

2182
01:21:04,390 --> 01:21:02,800
and so if there's some other society

2183
01:21:05,830 --> 01:21:04,400
over here that offers a better deal to

2184
01:21:09,590 --> 01:21:05,840
its

2185
01:21:12,229 --> 01:21:09,600
members and they will collectively beat

2186
01:21:14,229 --> 01:21:12,239
the more despotic society and that's

2187
01:21:15,350 --> 01:21:14,239
true to this day if you measure modern

2188
01:21:17,750 --> 01:21:15,360
societies

2189
01:21:18,550 --> 01:21:17,760
for their degree of equality there's

2190
01:21:20,629 --> 01:21:18,560
books like

2191
01:21:22,870 --> 01:21:20,639
the spirit level these are famous books

2192
01:21:25,590 --> 01:21:22,880
and political science

2193
01:21:26,870 --> 01:21:25,600
why nations fail these are books that

2194
01:21:28,550 --> 01:21:26,880
show

2195
01:21:30,709 --> 01:21:28,560
that nations vary in their degree of

2196
01:21:32,390 --> 01:21:30,719
inclusiveness

2197
01:21:34,390 --> 01:21:32,400
and the inclusive ones work better than

2198
01:21:38,790 --> 01:21:34,400
the

2199
01:21:42,149 --> 01:21:38,800
immigration

2200
01:21:44,709 --> 01:21:42,159
is tighter than americas so

2201
01:21:47,510 --> 01:21:44,719
first we have to look at the societies

2202
01:21:49,830 --> 01:21:47,520
as they exist as

2203
01:21:51,430 --> 01:21:49,840
societies before we talk about the very

2204
01:21:54,950 --> 01:21:51,440
recent problem

2205
01:21:56,709 --> 01:21:54,960
of of uh immigration and i'm not

2206
01:21:58,629 --> 01:21:56,719
romanticizing those countries in fact

2207
01:22:02,870 --> 01:21:58,639
there's a very close affinity

2208
01:22:05,430 --> 01:22:02,880
between the nordic countries and germany

2209
01:22:07,830 --> 01:22:05,440
and there's a strong thread of racial

2210
01:22:12,149 --> 01:22:07,840
superiority in the kind of the aryan

2211
01:22:15,270 --> 01:22:12,159
uh mentality that exists in those um

2212
01:22:16,950 --> 01:22:15,280
in those countries and so there's a

2213
01:22:18,229 --> 01:22:16,960
whole modern set of problems about

2214
01:22:22,830 --> 01:22:18,239
immigration and also

2215
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:26,470
um

2216
01:22:30,790 --> 01:22:29,030
immigrants so i mean these are real

2217
01:22:32,390 --> 01:22:30,800
issues that have to be taken

2218
01:22:34,709 --> 01:22:32,400
taken very seriously the point i want to

2219
01:22:36,310 --> 01:22:34,719
make about norway or the scandinavian

2220
01:22:38,950 --> 01:22:36,320
countries and not just them but you can

2221
01:22:40,550 --> 01:22:38,960
count switzerland and switzerland is not

2222
01:22:43,270 --> 01:22:40,560
culturally homogenous they speak four

2223
01:22:46,229 --> 01:22:43,280
languages within the same

2224
01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:46,239
nation the netherlands japan pick any

2225
01:22:51,910 --> 01:22:48,480
country that works well

2226
01:22:52,550 --> 01:22:51,920
often with histories which were highly

2227
01:22:56,070 --> 01:22:52,560
unequal

2228
01:22:57,189 --> 01:22:56,080
take japan as a feudal so i took england

2229
01:23:01,030 --> 01:22:57,199
as a

2230
01:23:03,750 --> 01:23:01,040
feudal society before it became

2231
01:23:05,350 --> 01:23:03,760
democratic but if you understand why

2232
01:23:05,669 --> 01:23:05,360
they're working well it's because they

2233
01:23:11,189 --> 01:23:05,679
have

2234
01:23:13,110 --> 01:23:11,199
relatively egalitarian relationship

2235
01:23:14,149 --> 01:23:13,120
which in a modern context means that

2236
01:23:17,910 --> 01:23:14,159
basically

2237
01:23:23,270 --> 01:23:17,920
labor capital

2238
01:23:26,790 --> 01:23:23,280
and government all have a lot of power

2239
01:23:28,390 --> 01:23:26,800
and work cooperatively collaboratively

2240
01:23:30,550 --> 01:23:28,400
for the common good that's what you see

2241
01:23:32,229 --> 01:23:30,560
a strong labor sector strong capital

2242
01:23:34,790 --> 01:23:32,239
sector strong government sector

2243
01:23:36,470 --> 01:23:34,800
and a cooperative spirit that for what

2244
01:23:40,550 --> 01:23:36,480
are we going to do as a

2245
01:23:43,270 --> 01:23:40,560
as a nation those are the ingredients

2246
01:23:44,470 --> 01:23:43,280
and they're the same shrinking back down

2247
01:23:46,229 --> 01:23:44,480
as a group whose members have a

2248
01:23:48,870 --> 01:23:46,239
relatively equal balance of power

2249
01:23:49,750 --> 01:23:48,880
and are trying to do well for the whole

2250
01:23:51,750 --> 01:23:49,760
group

2251
01:23:53,350 --> 01:23:51,760
that's what's needed and that's what

2252
01:23:54,310 --> 01:23:53,360
actually describes the best periods of

2253
01:23:57,510 --> 01:23:54,320
american history

2254
01:24:00,149 --> 01:23:57,520
the new deal the so-called era of good

2255
01:24:01,830 --> 01:24:00,159
feelings in the 1980s

2256
01:24:03,510 --> 01:24:01,840
i mean there really is a formula that's

2257
01:24:06,870 --> 01:24:03,520
not hard to understand

2258
01:24:10,390 --> 01:24:06,880
about the need for equality to force

2259
01:24:12,709 --> 01:24:10,400
for cooperation to to work at any scale

2260
01:24:14,709 --> 01:24:12,719
is there a connection between a whole

2261
01:24:16,149 --> 01:24:14,719
earth ethic or this cooperation

2262
01:24:17,830 --> 01:24:16,159
idea that you're putting forward

2263
01:24:19,910 --> 01:24:17,840
cooperation is essentially

2264
01:24:21,830 --> 01:24:19,920
is there a connection between that and

2265
01:24:23,750 --> 01:24:21,840
communism as some people might say

2266
01:24:25,030 --> 01:24:23,760
i know that now i don't know too much

2267
01:24:25,430 --> 01:24:25,040
about this but i know that some people

2268
01:24:28,310 --> 01:24:25,440
were

2269
01:24:29,270 --> 01:24:28,320
suggesting that group selection group

2270
01:24:33,350 --> 01:24:29,280
favorite selection

2271
01:24:34,070 --> 01:24:33,360
is evidence towards communism being the

2272
01:24:36,790 --> 01:24:34,080
correct

2273
01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:36,800
political mode versus capitalism which

2274
01:24:40,470 --> 01:24:37,760
sounds to be

2275
01:24:41,350 --> 01:24:40,480
more individual yeah so uh i think that

2276
01:24:43,990 --> 01:24:41,360
that's actually

2277
01:24:46,229 --> 01:24:44,000
not the right way to think about it and

2278
01:24:48,709 --> 01:24:46,239
why is that not correct

2279
01:24:50,709 --> 01:24:48,719
because every system whether it's a

2280
01:24:54,790 --> 01:24:50,719
socialist system or a

2281
01:24:56,830 --> 01:24:54,800
capitalist system is

2282
01:24:57,990 --> 01:24:56,840
or should be designed to work well as a

2283
01:25:00,629 --> 01:24:58,000
system

2284
01:25:01,510 --> 01:25:00,639
and so capitalism claims to be better as

2285
01:25:04,870 --> 01:25:01,520
a system

2286
01:25:05,510 --> 01:25:04,880
for the benefit of all capitalism does

2287
01:25:07,590 --> 01:25:05,520
not say

2288
01:25:09,910 --> 01:25:07,600
who cares about the benefit of all i'm

2289
01:25:13,110 --> 01:25:09,920
just going to go rich

2290
01:25:14,870 --> 01:25:13,120
right and so in that sense

2291
01:25:17,110 --> 01:25:14,880
everyone's a socialist in the sense that

2292
01:25:19,350 --> 01:25:17,120
if they argue for some kind of political

2293
01:25:20,870 --> 01:25:19,360
philosophy it has to work well at the

2294
01:25:22,550 --> 01:25:20,880
society

2295
01:25:24,709 --> 01:25:22,560
level otherwise you couldn't call it you

2296
01:25:28,790 --> 01:25:24,719
could even

2297
01:25:31,990 --> 01:25:28,800
discuss it if it if you weren't

2298
01:25:33,669 --> 01:25:32,000
presenting something that worked well at

2299
01:25:35,270 --> 01:25:33,679
the societal

2300
01:25:37,669 --> 01:25:35,280
level and so what we have to do is we

2301
01:25:38,390 --> 01:25:37,679
have to compare the societies that have

2302
01:25:41,030 --> 01:25:38,400
been

2303
01:25:42,629 --> 01:25:41,040
guided by capitalism and societies that

2304
01:25:45,270 --> 01:25:42,639
have been guided by

2305
01:25:46,950 --> 01:25:45,280
communism and we have to ask how well do

2306
01:25:49,590 --> 01:25:46,960
they work

2307
01:25:50,629 --> 01:25:49,600
as societies and what you discovered

2308
01:25:53,669 --> 01:25:50,639
there

2309
01:25:57,189 --> 01:25:53,679
is that the

2310
01:26:01,350 --> 01:25:57,199
socialist experiments actually

2311
01:26:04,950 --> 01:26:01,360
work very poorly very poorly

2312
01:26:07,350 --> 01:26:04,960
all the way up to venezuela uh

2313
01:26:09,669 --> 01:26:07,360
in the current in the current time so

2314
01:26:13,189 --> 01:26:09,679
why do they work so badly

2315
01:26:15,750 --> 01:26:13,199
for two main reasons

2316
01:26:16,470 --> 01:26:15,760
uh and here i'm relying on a great

2317
01:26:19,990 --> 01:26:16,480
scholar of

2318
01:26:21,750 --> 01:26:20,000
economics and and uh

2319
01:26:23,110 --> 01:26:21,760
and political theory named jeffrey

2320
01:26:27,350 --> 01:26:23,120
hodgson

2321
01:26:29,750 --> 01:26:27,360
in the um in the um in the uk

2322
01:26:32,070 --> 01:26:29,760
um so one reason they work poorly is

2323
01:26:35,110 --> 01:26:32,080
that centralized planning

2324
01:26:38,310 --> 01:26:35,120
uh they rejected the idea of

2325
01:26:38,790 --> 01:26:38,320
of market economies which uh hayek got

2326
01:26:40,870 --> 01:26:38,800
something

2327
01:26:43,830 --> 01:26:40,880
right basically and the market economy

2328
01:26:48,149 --> 01:26:43,840
is a a great way for adjusting prices

2329
01:26:51,990 --> 01:26:48,159
um to accommodate values to a

2330
01:26:54,550 --> 01:26:52,000
to a degree and if you actually try to

2331
01:26:57,350 --> 01:26:54,560
plan everything centrally it will never

2332
01:27:00,070 --> 01:26:57,360
work because the society is too complex

2333
01:27:02,950 --> 01:27:00,080
so here complexity comes in as a as an

2334
01:27:05,430 --> 01:27:02,960
important body of theory in addition to

2335
01:27:06,070 --> 01:27:05,440
in addition to evolution centralized

2336
01:27:09,350 --> 01:27:06,080
planning

2337
01:27:11,669 --> 01:27:09,360
doesn't work because the systems are too

2338
01:27:12,870 --> 01:27:11,679
complex for any group of experts to work

2339
01:27:14,950 --> 01:27:12,880
out and implement

2340
01:27:15,910 --> 01:27:14,960
a grand plan centralized planning

2341
01:27:17,270 --> 01:27:15,920
doesn't work

2342
01:27:19,590 --> 01:27:17,280
it doesn't even work at the level of a

2343
01:27:21,669 --> 01:27:19,600
small company not to speak of an

2344
01:27:23,189 --> 01:27:21,679
of a nation and the other problem with

2345
01:27:24,950 --> 01:27:23,199
socialism is that power gets

2346
01:27:28,149 --> 01:27:24,960
concentrated in the hands of

2347
01:27:29,669 --> 01:27:28,159
an elite a small group of elites

2348
01:27:32,149 --> 01:27:29,679
and whenever you get an imbalance of

2349
01:27:33,590 --> 01:27:32,159
power then basically you get that kind

2350
01:27:35,189 --> 01:27:33,600
of corruption where they

2351
01:27:37,030 --> 01:27:35,199
they run the country for their benefit

2352
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:37,040
not for the benefit of the whole

2353
01:27:40,550 --> 01:27:39,120
country so between power being

2354
01:27:43,669 --> 01:27:40,560
concentrated

2355
01:27:45,189 --> 01:27:43,679
and centralized planning um all social

2356
01:27:49,510 --> 01:27:45,199
all experiments they're

2357
01:27:54,390 --> 01:27:49,520
called socialists have failed miserably

2358
01:27:58,149 --> 01:27:54,400
okay so now let's look at capitalism

2359
01:28:01,510 --> 01:27:58,159
and they also fail

2360
01:28:03,830 --> 01:28:01,520
do they fail as badly well i don't care

2361
01:28:07,669 --> 01:28:03,840
they fail in ways that we need to

2362
01:28:10,709 --> 01:28:07,679
correct and they fail basically

2363
01:28:15,110 --> 01:28:13,430
buying into the invisible hand metaphor

2364
01:28:16,390 --> 01:28:15,120
by thinking that the pursuit of lower

2365
01:28:18,790 --> 01:28:16,400
level self-interest

2366
01:28:20,870 --> 01:28:18,800
in an ugly unregulated economy if we

2367
01:28:22,629 --> 01:28:20,880
just try to maximize our wealth

2368
01:28:24,470 --> 01:28:22,639
and corporations just trying to maximize

2369
01:28:25,830 --> 01:28:24,480
their their

2370
01:28:28,470 --> 01:28:25,840
their profits that's their only

2371
01:28:31,030 --> 01:28:28,480
responsibility as friedman said the only

2372
01:28:35,030 --> 01:28:31,040
social responsibility of a company is to

2373
01:28:36,950 --> 01:28:35,040
earn profits for its uh

2374
01:28:38,550 --> 01:28:36,960
shareholders that's a recipe for

2375
01:28:41,110 --> 01:28:38,560
disaster

2376
01:28:43,350 --> 01:28:41,120
so both of those don't work and now we

2377
01:28:45,830 --> 01:28:43,360
have to then we can discuss what can

2378
01:28:47,189 --> 01:28:45,840
can work when we were talking about

2379
01:28:49,350 --> 01:28:47,199
existential security

2380
01:28:51,669 --> 01:28:49,360
you were saying that there's titan loose

2381
01:28:53,030 --> 01:28:51,679
which i associate with totalitarianism

2382
01:28:55,270 --> 01:28:53,040
and liberalism is that a wrong

2383
01:29:00,229 --> 01:28:55,280
association

2384
01:29:04,709 --> 01:29:02,470
okay is strong existential security

2385
01:29:05,510 --> 01:29:04,719
needed for liberalism or does liberalism

2386
01:29:09,189 --> 01:29:05,520
produce

2387
01:29:09,199 --> 01:29:17,510
i would like to think that um

2388
01:29:21,030 --> 01:29:19,270
what we associate with liberalism and

2389
01:29:23,030 --> 01:29:21,040
democratic governance and so on can

2390
01:29:25,430 --> 01:29:23,040
function in very harsh environments

2391
01:29:26,550 --> 01:29:25,440
in some ways it's needed more than ever

2392
01:29:29,990 --> 01:29:26,560
and uh

2393
01:29:33,030 --> 01:29:30,000
actually there's great um um

2394
01:29:34,390 --> 01:29:33,040
uh destroyers to be

2395
01:29:36,470 --> 01:29:34,400
to be told there i mentioned the book

2396
01:29:39,669 --> 01:29:36,480
why nations fail by uh

2397
01:29:42,229 --> 01:29:39,679
asimoglu and uh and robinson

2398
01:29:44,870 --> 01:29:42,239
and they begin with a story of the

2399
01:29:48,550 --> 01:29:44,880
colonization of the new world

2400
01:29:53,030 --> 01:29:51,510
let's see how much detail do i want to

2401
01:29:55,110 --> 01:29:53,040
tell the story so when this when the

2402
01:29:57,030 --> 01:29:55,120
spaniards in the portuguese colonize

2403
01:30:00,390 --> 01:29:57,040
central and south america

2404
01:30:01,669 --> 01:30:00,400
they encountered very hierarchical

2405
01:30:05,430 --> 01:30:01,679
societies

2406
01:30:06,950 --> 01:30:05,440
might you might say

2407
01:30:08,470 --> 01:30:06,960
and so they could succeed just by

2408
01:30:10,070 --> 01:30:08,480
lopping off the head of

2409
01:30:11,669 --> 01:30:10,080
these hierarchical societies and

2410
01:30:13,110 --> 01:30:11,679
becoming the gruelers

2411
01:30:14,709 --> 01:30:13,120
they didn't have to bring any women they

2412
01:30:16,709 --> 01:30:14,719
didn't have to bring any farmers they

2413
01:30:20,709 --> 01:30:16,719
could just become the rulers of these

2414
01:30:22,950 --> 01:30:20,719
hierarchical societies

2415
01:30:25,030 --> 01:30:22,960
and um and the british when they

2416
01:30:26,870 --> 01:30:25,040
colonized north america they wanted to

2417
01:30:30,390 --> 01:30:26,880
do the same thing

2418
01:30:32,070 --> 01:30:30,400
and so the jamestown colony came without

2419
01:30:34,149 --> 01:30:32,080
any farmers without any women they were

2420
01:30:35,270 --> 01:30:34,159
going to conquer the indians and get

2421
01:30:37,030 --> 01:30:35,280
gold and

2422
01:30:39,110 --> 01:30:37,040
do the same thing well that wasn't going

2423
01:30:41,910 --> 01:30:39,120
to work for a whole

2424
01:30:43,750 --> 01:30:41,920
bunch of reasons and so the next thought

2425
01:30:45,910 --> 01:30:43,760
was to import british laborers and

2426
01:30:48,709 --> 01:30:45,920
recreate a feudal

2427
01:30:51,669 --> 01:30:48,719
society they were housed in barracks

2428
01:30:53,990 --> 01:30:51,679
they couldn't run away on pain of death

2429
01:30:55,350 --> 01:30:54,000
and and so that didn't work either

2430
01:30:56,790 --> 01:30:55,360
because actually they could run away and

2431
01:30:59,270 --> 01:30:56,800
there was nothing

2432
01:31:00,390 --> 01:30:59,280
to do about it and so then this little

2433
01:31:02,870 --> 01:31:00,400
colony

2434
01:31:04,390 --> 01:31:02,880
was forced by circumstances by adverse

2435
01:31:06,470 --> 01:31:04,400
circumstances so this was very

2436
01:31:09,270 --> 01:31:06,480
existentially insecure

2437
01:31:10,950 --> 01:31:09,280
they were forced to become more fair in

2438
01:31:13,110 --> 01:31:10,960
order to

2439
01:31:15,030 --> 01:31:13,120
survive only when they instituted rules

2440
01:31:17,270 --> 01:31:15,040
that gave a better deal

2441
01:31:18,390 --> 01:31:17,280
do everyone in the colony could it

2442
01:31:22,629 --> 01:31:18,400
survive

2443
01:31:24,709 --> 01:31:22,639
as a colony so there's a sense in which

2444
01:31:26,229 --> 01:31:24,719
democratic governance and equality and

2445
01:31:29,350 --> 01:31:26,239
so on actually

2446
01:31:33,270 --> 01:31:29,360
was necessary for survival

2447
01:31:39,030 --> 01:31:36,790
environments what was this better deal

2448
01:31:41,750 --> 01:31:39,040
well um if you were to become part of it

2449
01:31:46,629 --> 01:31:41,760
you'd be given your own landform

2450
01:31:48,550 --> 01:31:46,639
example you wouldn't be a just a serve

2451
01:31:50,070 --> 01:31:48,560
working on the estate of a rich people

2452
01:31:51,990 --> 01:31:50,080
you were given your own plot of land and

2453
01:31:52,790 --> 01:31:52,000
so on you were given a voice in decision

2454
01:31:54,629 --> 01:31:52,800
making

2455
01:31:56,310 --> 01:31:54,639
i wanted to know what are the

2456
01:31:58,470 --> 01:31:56,320
preconditions for liberalism

2457
01:32:00,629 --> 01:31:58,480
i was thinking about this i was thinking

2458
01:32:02,390 --> 01:32:00,639
was it was you mentioned which was

2459
01:32:04,070 --> 01:32:02,400
existential security well no because you

2460
01:32:06,310 --> 01:32:04,080
just flipped that you said actually

2461
01:32:07,430 --> 01:32:06,320
liberalism can thrive and then produce

2462
01:32:09,590 --> 01:32:07,440
some security

2463
01:32:10,470 --> 01:32:09,600
even harsh environments and then i was

2464
01:32:13,189 --> 01:32:10,480
wondering well

2465
01:32:13,990 --> 01:32:13,199
are there memetic preconditions are

2466
01:32:16,790 --> 01:32:14,000
there memes

2467
01:32:17,350 --> 01:32:16,800
that need to be dispersed in the society

2468
01:32:19,189 --> 01:32:17,360
and

2469
01:32:21,110 --> 01:32:19,199
adopted before liberalism could come

2470
01:32:21,510 --> 01:32:21,120
about and if so what would those memes

2471
01:32:23,910 --> 01:32:21,520
be

2472
01:32:26,629 --> 01:32:23,920
do you have any ideas well other other

2473
01:32:31,030 --> 01:32:26,639
people can

2474
01:32:34,629 --> 01:32:32,470
history of this but i'll do the best

2475
01:32:37,830 --> 01:32:34,639
that i can

2476
01:32:41,590 --> 01:32:39,430
the cultural evolution of european

2477
01:32:45,110 --> 01:32:41,600
society can definitely be seen as a

2478
01:32:53,030 --> 01:32:48,149
selection basically competition between

2479
01:32:54,709 --> 01:32:53,040
polities resulting in larger and larger

2480
01:32:56,470 --> 01:32:54,719
polities ultimately the scale of

2481
01:32:57,350 --> 01:32:56,480
european nations you go back far enough

2482
01:32:59,750 --> 01:32:57,360
and you find all these little

2483
01:33:01,510 --> 01:32:59,760
city-states hundreds and hundreds

2484
01:33:03,910 --> 01:33:01,520
of them why don't they exist anymore

2485
01:33:06,550 --> 01:33:03,920
it's because they had to amalgamate

2486
01:33:08,790 --> 01:33:06,560
in order to fight each other and so

2487
01:33:09,510 --> 01:33:08,800
that's what resulted in nations the size

2488
01:33:15,270 --> 01:33:09,520
of

2489
01:33:16,629 --> 01:33:15,280
that's when when it comes to nation

2490
01:33:17,990 --> 01:33:16,639
building and things like that and we go

2491
01:33:18,470 --> 01:33:18,000
to other parts of the world such as

2492
01:33:20,790 --> 01:33:18,480
africa

2493
01:33:23,830 --> 01:33:20,800
the middle east afghanistan which never

2494
01:33:25,510 --> 01:33:23,840
actually ever achieved that scale of

2495
01:33:27,590 --> 01:33:25,520
governance and then we expect them to

2496
01:33:29,350 --> 01:33:27,600
adopt a european

2497
01:33:31,669 --> 01:33:29,360
model that typically doesn't work

2498
01:33:35,430 --> 01:33:31,679
because they never achieved that

2499
01:33:35,990 --> 01:33:35,440
scale of uh that scale of governance so

2500
01:33:38,950 --> 01:33:36,000
what you ended

2501
01:33:40,149 --> 01:33:38,960
up with were very large societies that

2502
01:33:44,070 --> 01:33:40,159
ultimately became

2503
01:33:48,149 --> 01:33:44,080
autocratic and

2504
01:33:51,669 --> 01:33:48,159
once again ceased to work for the common

2505
01:33:53,030 --> 01:33:51,679
uh good and then democratic forms of

2506
01:33:56,070 --> 01:33:53,040
governance

2507
01:33:58,870 --> 01:33:56,080
emerged from their liberalism

2508
01:33:59,830 --> 01:33:58,880
the enlightenment values emerged from

2509
01:34:03,350 --> 01:33:59,840
there

2510
01:34:07,669 --> 01:34:03,360
and why and then

2511
01:34:11,750 --> 01:34:07,679
that then asserted greater equality

2512
01:34:13,510 --> 01:34:11,760
and uh ultimately resulted in more

2513
01:34:15,750 --> 01:34:13,520
powerful

2514
01:34:17,990 --> 01:34:15,760
nations if you look for example at the

2515
01:34:21,590 --> 01:34:18,000
at the competition between england and

2516
01:34:23,270 --> 01:34:21,600
france england is a quarter the size of

2517
01:34:24,790 --> 01:34:23,280
france but managed to punch above its

2518
01:34:27,030 --> 01:34:24,800
weight in part because

2519
01:34:28,709 --> 01:34:27,040
of such things as the industrial

2520
01:34:29,590 --> 01:34:28,719
revolution why did that take place in

2521
01:34:31,189 --> 01:34:29,600
england and not

2522
01:34:33,750 --> 01:34:31,199
france is because actually if you're an

2523
01:34:36,229 --> 01:34:33,760
inventor some kind of craftsman or

2524
01:34:37,430 --> 01:34:36,239
or watchmaker or something like that in

2525
01:34:39,910 --> 01:34:37,440
england and you came up with an

2526
01:34:42,550 --> 01:34:39,920
investment you had a way to develop that

2527
01:34:44,830 --> 01:34:42,560
investment in a way that you would share

2528
01:34:51,109 --> 01:34:48,709
benefits of it was it was enough

2529
01:34:52,709 --> 01:34:51,119
equality so that the merchant class for

2530
01:34:53,590 --> 01:34:52,719
example had had enough so that they

2531
01:34:55,270 --> 01:34:53,600
could actually

2532
01:34:57,590 --> 01:34:55,280
benefit from this sort of thing then in

2533
01:34:59,990 --> 01:34:57,600
a more aristocratic

2534
01:35:01,590 --> 01:35:00,000
uh society and you didn't have to have

2535
01:35:03,350 --> 01:35:01,600
many decades of that before you would

2536
01:35:04,709 --> 01:35:03,360
have technological advances and so on

2537
01:35:06,229 --> 01:35:04,719
and so forth in which you could punch

2538
01:35:09,270 --> 01:35:06,239
above your

2539
01:35:11,590 --> 01:35:09,280
of your uh your wage

2540
01:35:13,510 --> 01:35:11,600
so so and if you look at the actual

2541
01:35:17,669 --> 01:35:13,520
religion of these democratic

2542
01:35:23,189 --> 01:35:21,030
the masons the freemasons become

2543
01:35:25,590 --> 01:35:23,199
a very interesting story here i don't

2544
01:35:28,950 --> 01:35:25,600
know if we want to go into it but

2545
01:35:32,709 --> 01:35:28,960
freemason societies started out

2546
01:35:34,310 --> 01:35:32,719
as actually societies of of uh

2547
01:35:37,350 --> 01:35:34,320
architects basically the people that

2548
01:35:41,270 --> 01:35:37,360
built the great cathedrals and

2549
01:35:43,910 --> 01:35:41,280
and so on so it was building and and

2550
01:35:46,310 --> 01:35:43,920
and architects but then it morphed into

2551
01:35:48,870 --> 01:35:46,320
a kind of a philosophical society

2552
01:35:49,990 --> 01:35:48,880
that could accommodate more sectors of

2553
01:35:54,229 --> 01:35:50,000
the

2554
01:35:58,149 --> 01:35:54,239
society than normal aristocratic society

2555
01:36:01,750 --> 01:35:58,159
so you could become a freemason

2556
01:36:03,350 --> 01:36:01,760
and mingle with people

2557
01:36:05,189 --> 01:36:03,360
that you couldn't do otherwise out of

2558
01:36:08,229 --> 01:36:05,199
your uh

2559
01:36:10,629 --> 01:36:08,239
station and then

2560
01:36:12,709 --> 01:36:10,639
and then they were the first ones to

2561
01:36:15,109 --> 01:36:12,719
form a actually written constitution

2562
01:36:17,109 --> 01:36:15,119
that's a long story i'm sure it but it's

2563
01:36:19,189 --> 01:36:17,119
um it's really quite fascinating that

2564
01:36:20,229 --> 01:36:19,199
once again in small groups this became

2565
01:36:23,990 --> 01:36:20,239
incubated

2566
01:36:27,270 --> 01:36:24,000
and then expanded and uh led to the

2567
01:36:28,629 --> 01:36:27,280
um to the democratic revolutions in

2568
01:36:31,350 --> 01:36:28,639
france and

2569
01:36:32,790 --> 01:36:31,360
and um america and all through all

2570
01:36:34,149 --> 01:36:32,800
through europe in some ways was a

2571
01:36:36,470 --> 01:36:34,159
scaling up

2572
01:36:37,350 --> 01:36:36,480
of a form of governance that originated

2573
01:36:39,830 --> 01:36:37,360
in um

2574
01:36:41,430 --> 01:36:39,840
in these little tiny societies i

2575
01:36:42,470 --> 01:36:41,440
remember in this view of life you were

2576
01:36:45,590 --> 01:36:42,480
talking about

2577
01:36:47,590 --> 01:36:45,600
how the europeans used to go and

2578
01:36:49,430 --> 01:36:47,600
study other cultures and rate them

2579
01:36:50,229 --> 01:36:49,440
essentially on a scale of civilized to

2580
01:36:52,390 --> 01:36:50,239
savage

2581
01:36:53,990 --> 01:36:52,400
and that was the wrong way of obviously

2582
01:36:57,350 --> 01:36:54,000
the wrong way of going about it

2583
01:36:59,030 --> 01:36:57,360
a better way was to be would be

2584
01:37:00,550 --> 01:36:59,040
something akin to looking at the inuit

2585
01:37:02,229 --> 01:37:00,560
and seeing how they're accustomed to the

2586
01:37:03,030 --> 01:37:02,239
cold and they have their own practices

2587
01:37:05,350 --> 01:37:03,040
to deal with it

2588
01:37:06,390 --> 01:37:05,360
and then we can say oh they're not

2589
01:37:08,950 --> 01:37:06,400
savage they're

2590
01:37:10,950 --> 01:37:08,960
adapted to that environment okay so then

2591
01:37:12,390 --> 01:37:10,960
my question was

2592
01:37:14,870 --> 01:37:12,400
they're adapted because they survive

2593
01:37:16,790 --> 01:37:14,880
well in that environment

2594
01:37:17,910 --> 01:37:16,800
then the europeans came along and

2595
01:37:19,910 --> 01:37:17,920
invented cities and

2596
01:37:21,510 --> 01:37:19,920
technology and now they can survive in

2597
01:37:25,030 --> 01:37:21,520
alaska and

2598
01:37:27,189 --> 01:37:25,040
the coldest parts of the world maybe

2599
01:37:28,310 --> 01:37:27,199
better but that's a question i want to

2600
01:37:29,109 --> 01:37:28,320
ask you is what does it mean to be

2601
01:37:31,430 --> 01:37:29,119
adapted

2602
01:37:32,550 --> 01:37:31,440
and if and if these white europeans

2603
01:37:33,430 --> 01:37:32,560
let's just call them white europeans

2604
01:37:35,910 --> 01:37:33,440
came and settled

2605
01:37:37,030 --> 01:37:35,920
and now made brick houses with fire and

2606
01:37:38,950 --> 01:37:37,040
electricity that

2607
01:37:40,470 --> 01:37:38,960
goes right through are they not more

2608
01:37:43,510 --> 01:37:40,480
adapted than

2609
01:37:45,030 --> 01:37:43,520
the inuit then because they're able to

2610
01:37:47,430 --> 01:37:45,040
survive better in these colder

2611
01:37:49,350 --> 01:37:47,440
environments

2612
01:37:51,590 --> 01:37:49,360
oh you there's a whole bunch of things

2613
01:37:51,990 --> 01:37:51,600
you raised there so let's try to unpack

2614
01:37:55,910 --> 01:37:52,000
them

2615
01:37:58,390 --> 01:37:55,920
one by one uh i'm lucky

2616
01:37:59,750 --> 01:37:58,400
to be trained as an evolutionary

2617
01:38:03,750 --> 01:37:59,760
biologist a lot of people that are

2618
01:38:07,830 --> 01:38:06,070
were trained in some of the human

2619
01:38:09,030 --> 01:38:07,840
related disciplines and they picked up

2620
01:38:12,229 --> 01:38:09,040
their

2621
01:38:14,950 --> 01:38:12,239
evolutionary theory playing what game uh

2622
01:38:16,470 --> 01:38:14,960
well the whole thinking of all aspects

2623
01:38:19,189 --> 01:38:16,480
of humanity from an evolutionary

2624
01:38:21,910 --> 01:38:19,199
perspective basically this view of life

2625
01:38:23,510 --> 01:38:21,920
um extending evolutionary thinking to

2626
01:38:25,750 --> 01:38:23,520
explain all aspects of

2627
01:38:27,109 --> 01:38:25,760
of humanity that's the game that i'm

2628
01:38:28,629 --> 01:38:27,119
sorry you mean to say that you have the

2629
01:38:30,310 --> 01:38:28,639
advantage in that you were

2630
01:38:31,910 --> 01:38:30,320
in constant evolutionary thinking first

2631
01:38:33,750 --> 01:38:31,920
then started to apply it out where yeah

2632
01:38:35,030 --> 01:38:33,760
other people yeah and actually yeah and

2633
01:38:37,910 --> 01:38:35,040
i'm a bit unusual

2634
01:38:38,470 --> 01:38:37,920
uh that way the reason i mention it is

2635
01:38:43,590 --> 01:38:38,480
that

2636
01:38:46,950 --> 01:38:43,600
um sophisticated evolutionary thinking

2637
01:38:50,070 --> 01:38:46,960
includes basically showcases

2638
01:38:50,950 --> 01:38:50,080
adaptation but there's a lot of other

2639
01:38:53,189 --> 01:38:50,960
stuff

2640
01:38:54,950 --> 01:38:53,199
as well and so when we look at things

2641
01:38:56,550 --> 01:38:54,960
that are out there

2642
01:38:59,430 --> 01:38:56,560
sometimes they're adaptive sometimes

2643
01:39:02,149 --> 01:38:59,440
they're not even when they're adaptive

2644
01:39:03,910 --> 01:39:02,159
then what counts as adaptive in the

2645
01:39:05,350 --> 01:39:03,920
evolutionary sense of the word doesn't

2646
01:39:06,629 --> 01:39:05,360
necessarily correspond to in the

2647
01:39:09,669 --> 01:39:06,639
normative

2648
01:39:12,870 --> 01:39:09,679
sense of the word so back to the way we

2649
01:39:15,510 --> 01:39:12,880
should be looking at cultures

2650
01:39:16,709 --> 01:39:15,520
and during the victorian victorian era

2651
01:39:20,149 --> 01:39:16,719
it was

2652
01:39:22,550 --> 01:39:20,159
very difficult for darwin along with his

2653
01:39:24,629 --> 01:39:22,560
colleagues to not to think of european

2654
01:39:29,189 --> 01:39:24,639
culture as superior in some sense

2655
01:39:31,750 --> 01:39:29,199
to all other cultures yet a more true

2656
01:39:33,830 --> 01:39:31,760
evolutionary approach as you just said

2657
01:39:36,950 --> 01:39:33,840
would be that most cultures

2658
01:39:39,030 --> 01:39:36,960
are at least to some degree well adapted

2659
01:39:42,470 --> 01:39:39,040
to their

2660
01:39:43,910 --> 01:39:42,480
circumstances and so uh that's a more

2661
01:39:45,590 --> 01:39:43,920
respectful

2662
01:39:48,229 --> 01:39:45,600
way to approach cultures and one which

2663
01:39:51,109 --> 01:39:48,239
is truer to evolutionary

2664
01:39:52,790 --> 01:39:51,119
uh theories so in that sense the inuits

2665
01:39:53,669 --> 01:39:52,800
are better adapted to an arctic climate

2666
01:39:57,830 --> 01:39:53,679
than

2667
01:40:00,870 --> 01:39:57,840
you're saying

2668
01:40:07,350 --> 01:40:03,990
such modern conveniences is housing and

2669
01:40:09,109 --> 01:40:07,360
and heating and

2670
01:40:11,510 --> 01:40:09,119
so on is well adapted and of course

2671
01:40:13,830 --> 01:40:11,520
those have been

2672
01:40:17,270 --> 01:40:13,840
adopted by inuits they don't live in

2673
01:40:20,470 --> 01:40:19,270
but if they did let's imagine that there

2674
01:40:21,990 --> 01:40:20,480
are some that still do

2675
01:40:24,790 --> 01:40:22,000
well i mean that's not imaginary there's

2676
01:40:27,430 --> 01:40:24,800
all kinds of uh of uh

2677
01:40:30,070 --> 01:40:27,440
indigenous people that uh actually want

2678
01:40:33,430 --> 01:40:30,080
to want to stick to their indigenous

2679
01:40:37,270 --> 01:40:33,440
uh ways and

2680
01:40:39,109 --> 01:40:37,280
to to a greater or lesser degree and and

2681
01:40:41,109 --> 01:40:39,119
one point to make i think is that that

2682
01:40:44,229 --> 01:40:41,119
should be their choice

2683
01:40:47,030 --> 01:40:44,239
so uh and you see

2684
01:40:47,669 --> 01:40:47,040
very interesting regions such as ecuador

2685
01:40:51,590 --> 01:40:47,679
which have

2686
01:40:54,390 --> 01:40:51,600
still a large indigenous

2687
01:40:56,310 --> 01:40:54,400
and diverse you know many tribes in

2688
01:40:57,350 --> 01:40:56,320
ecuador that are now being represented

2689
01:41:03,750 --> 01:40:57,360
in

2690
01:41:05,750 --> 01:41:03,760
and so it's like our choice what do we

2691
01:41:09,270 --> 01:41:05,760
want to do do we want to

2692
01:41:10,470 --> 01:41:09,280
modernize our or not often they might i

2693
01:41:12,790 --> 01:41:10,480
mean such things as

2694
01:41:16,830 --> 01:41:12,800
as medicine i mean who wants to do

2695
01:41:23,030 --> 01:41:20,310
people so so

2696
01:41:25,350 --> 01:41:23,040
it's a it's a very complex situation but

2697
01:41:28,390 --> 01:41:25,360
one which needs to be handled

2698
01:41:30,950 --> 01:41:28,400
in a uh egalitarian

2699
01:41:34,870 --> 01:41:30,960
fashion that acquires respect to all of

2700
01:41:39,109 --> 01:41:36,550
stakeholders there's a sense in which

2701
01:41:40,870 --> 01:41:39,119
and this is once again the egalitarian

2702
01:41:42,470 --> 01:41:40,880
impulse no matter who i am what culture

2703
01:41:44,550 --> 01:41:42,480
i represent

2704
01:41:46,470 --> 01:41:44,560
uh there's some sense in which i need to

2705
01:41:50,709 --> 01:41:46,480
be a moral equal

2706
01:41:52,629 --> 01:41:50,719
and that my existence counts

2707
01:41:55,350 --> 01:41:52,639
i have some kind of say in the

2708
01:41:58,470 --> 01:41:55,360
decision-making process based on

2709
01:42:02,390 --> 01:41:58,480
my values and so

2710
01:42:05,990 --> 01:42:02,400
that's the that's the concept of moral

2711
01:42:10,390 --> 01:42:06,000
um equality which i think is pretty much

2712
01:42:13,350 --> 01:42:10,400
uh culturally universal

2713
01:42:14,310 --> 01:42:13,360
not restricted to weird societies is

2714
01:42:17,350 --> 01:42:14,320
that uh

2715
01:42:21,430 --> 01:42:17,360
however the us gets defined then

2716
01:42:25,189 --> 01:42:21,440
um then there's some uh

2717
01:42:26,229 --> 01:42:25,199
feeling of of equality and that that has

2718
01:42:35,350 --> 01:42:26,239
a

2719
01:42:38,550 --> 01:42:35,360
resist you

2720
01:42:39,669 --> 01:42:38,560
if you infringe upon infringe upon that

2721
01:42:41,669 --> 01:42:39,679
so if we're going to do something

2722
01:42:45,350 --> 01:42:41,679
together it has to be in some sense

2723
01:42:47,189 --> 01:42:45,360
why with my acquiescence

2724
01:42:49,510 --> 01:42:47,199
i have to i have to be able to say yes

2725
01:42:52,229 --> 01:42:49,520
to that

2726
01:42:53,590 --> 01:42:52,239
speaking on that you mentioned most of

2727
01:42:55,510 --> 01:42:53,600
the time when we're doing studies it's

2728
01:42:58,070 --> 01:42:55,520
on weird quote unquote people

2729
01:42:59,910 --> 01:42:58,080
and we can't necessarily generalize and

2730
01:43:00,550 --> 01:42:59,920
say that that's a human universal when

2731
01:43:02,390 --> 01:43:00,560
we talked about

2732
01:43:04,390 --> 01:43:02,400
moralistic behavior being virtuous and

2733
01:43:08,149 --> 01:43:04,400
courageous or virtue being

2734
01:43:11,270 --> 01:43:08,159
virtually encouraged virtue being

2735
01:43:12,550 --> 01:43:11,280
courage and honesty and forthrightness

2736
01:43:16,470 --> 01:43:12,560
and so on and so forth

2737
01:43:20,870 --> 01:43:19,669
um close i think would be part of the

2738
01:43:24,709 --> 01:43:20,880
human repertoire

2739
01:43:26,709 --> 01:43:24,719
um i'm just wondering because

2740
01:43:28,310 --> 01:43:26,719
i don't know and i'm curious i don't

2741
01:43:29,590 --> 01:43:28,320
know if certain tribes or certain other

2742
01:43:32,390 --> 01:43:29,600
places in the world would say

2743
01:43:33,990 --> 01:43:32,400
well actually to be a moral person is to

2744
01:43:34,790 --> 01:43:34,000
cut the head off your enemy and put it

2745
01:43:38,149 --> 01:43:34,800
on your fence

2746
01:43:39,750 --> 01:43:38,159
well yeah that that that too i mean

2747
01:43:41,270 --> 01:43:39,760
as soon as you talk about how we behave

2748
01:43:45,430 --> 01:43:41,280
towards them

2749
01:43:47,910 --> 01:43:45,440
then um anything can go as we've already

2750
01:43:49,669 --> 01:43:47,920
as republicans said the world is full of

2751
01:43:53,510 --> 01:43:49,679
situations in which we

2752
01:43:56,629 --> 01:43:53,520
the group are threatened by them

2753
01:43:58,870 --> 01:43:56,639
and the moral thing for us to do is to

2754
01:44:00,709 --> 01:43:58,880
cut off their heads and put it on a

2755
01:44:02,470 --> 01:44:00,719
stake it could also be moral that line

2756
01:44:03,910 --> 01:44:02,480
could also be moral

2757
01:44:05,430 --> 01:44:03,920
what's that so i'm just going to cut

2758
01:44:06,470 --> 01:44:05,440
that line the moral thing for us to do

2759
01:44:08,629 --> 01:44:06,480
is

2760
01:44:10,229 --> 01:44:08,639
by taking stone wilson thank you very

2761
01:44:11,270 --> 01:44:10,239
much yeah that's it that's all that's

2762
01:44:13,270 --> 01:44:11,280
going online

2763
01:44:15,109 --> 01:44:13,280
thank you it can also be moral it could

2764
01:44:16,470 --> 01:44:15,119
also be moral to take the deviant within

2765
01:44:18,310 --> 01:44:16,480
the society and cut off their head and

2766
01:44:20,950 --> 01:44:18,320
put it on a

2767
01:44:23,189 --> 01:44:20,960
honest day these things are the only the

2768
01:44:28,790 --> 01:44:23,199
way we think these are immoral

2769
01:44:32,790 --> 01:44:30,550
it's okay just continue i don't know if

2770
01:44:34,550 --> 01:44:32,800
you know who janice fiomingo is

2771
01:44:37,270 --> 01:44:34,560
she's a professor of english when i was

2772
01:44:39,430 --> 01:44:37,280
interviewing her she her cat just came

2773
01:44:41,270 --> 01:44:39,440
right right upon her list you can sit up

2774
01:44:42,550 --> 01:44:41,280
here if you want

2775
01:44:44,629 --> 01:44:42,560
i don't think that's gonna that'll keep

2776
01:44:49,510 --> 01:44:44,639
you silent and i can take you leave

2777
01:44:51,750 --> 01:44:49,520
boom yeah

2778
01:44:53,750 --> 01:44:51,760
now your your viewership will go way up

2779
01:44:55,910 --> 01:44:53,760
if you include the dog in the picture

2780
01:44:57,590 --> 01:44:55,920
okay okay so where are we so these

2781
01:44:59,669 --> 01:44:57,600
things appear immoral to us because

2782
01:45:01,510 --> 01:44:59,679
we're taking a third person stance we're

2783
01:45:04,870 --> 01:45:01,520
we're not

2784
01:45:08,149 --> 01:45:04,880
that

2785
01:45:11,430 --> 01:45:08,159
looking at these between group

2786
01:45:13,270 --> 01:45:11,440
behaviors and also the the the policing

2787
01:45:15,350 --> 01:45:13,280
the policing behaviors which cause us to

2788
01:45:16,790 --> 01:45:15,360
be cruel to members of our own

2789
01:45:18,550 --> 01:45:16,800
group and we're seeing this in some kind

2790
01:45:21,590 --> 01:45:18,560
of third person vantage

2791
01:45:24,149 --> 01:45:21,600
which makes it appear immoral so much

2792
01:45:27,350 --> 01:45:24,159
depends upon the perspective

2793
01:45:29,270 --> 01:45:27,360
are you a moral relativist would you

2794
01:45:31,590 --> 01:45:29,280
consider yourself to be that

2795
01:45:33,030 --> 01:45:31,600
how would you define moral relativism

2796
01:45:36,470 --> 01:45:33,040
that

2797
01:45:39,189 --> 01:45:36,480
there are no objective moral standards

2798
01:45:40,390 --> 01:45:39,199
pretty much what every culture has is

2799
01:45:42,830 --> 01:45:40,400
good for them no i'm not

2800
01:45:45,590 --> 01:45:42,840
at all a moral relativist i think that

2801
01:45:48,390 --> 01:45:45,600
that morality

2802
01:45:49,830 --> 01:45:48,400
axiomatically is about the welfare of

2803
01:45:53,990 --> 01:45:49,840
others

2804
01:45:56,629 --> 01:45:54,000
and society as a whole as defined by the

2805
01:45:59,189 --> 01:45:56,639
by the community and there's nothing

2806
01:46:01,669 --> 01:45:59,199
arbitrary about what counts as moral or

2807
01:46:02,950 --> 01:46:01,679
immoral uh from the perspective of

2808
01:46:06,870 --> 01:46:02,960
members of the

2809
01:46:09,350 --> 01:46:06,880
moral uh well you said as defined as

2810
01:46:10,830 --> 01:46:09,360
by the community so if they define it

2811
01:46:14,149 --> 01:46:10,840
any way they want is that

2812
01:46:18,070 --> 01:46:14,159
okay are there some

2813
01:46:21,750 --> 01:46:20,709
well typically one of my favorite

2814
01:46:25,510 --> 01:46:21,760
authors as a

2815
01:46:28,870 --> 01:46:25,520
novelist is joseph conrad who wrote

2816
01:46:29,510 --> 01:46:28,880
many books about the sea and he once

2817
01:46:31,189 --> 01:46:29,520
said that

2818
01:46:34,790 --> 01:46:31,199
he likes writing books about the sea

2819
01:46:37,669 --> 01:46:34,800
because they're so morally simple

2820
01:46:39,030 --> 01:46:37,679
very simply if you're on a ship then

2821
01:46:42,229 --> 01:46:39,040
what you need to do is to

2822
01:46:44,470 --> 01:46:42,239
stay afloat you know who the group is

2823
01:46:45,669 --> 01:46:44,480
and you know what they need to do they

2824
01:46:48,629 --> 01:46:45,679
need to stay afloat

2825
01:46:49,669 --> 01:46:48,639
and so that provides a clarity a moral

2826
01:46:53,189 --> 01:46:49,679
clarity

2827
01:46:54,550 --> 01:46:53,199
which does not exist in other situations

2828
01:46:55,990 --> 01:46:54,560
where we don't really know who the group

2829
01:46:57,830 --> 01:46:56,000
is and we don't really know what we need

2830
01:47:00,950 --> 01:46:57,840
to do to stay afloat

2831
01:47:03,990 --> 01:47:00,960
right that makes things complex

2832
01:47:05,990 --> 01:47:04,000
but if you take a ship then

2833
01:47:08,310 --> 01:47:06,000
that moral clarity i think argues

2834
01:47:09,830 --> 01:47:08,320
against relativism

2835
01:47:12,390 --> 01:47:09,840
at least on a ship there's nothing

2836
01:47:15,590 --> 01:47:12,400
relative about what counts as

2837
01:47:17,910 --> 01:47:15,600
moral or who's in or who's out or

2838
01:47:19,270 --> 01:47:17,920
or anything like that that's why space

2839
01:47:22,310 --> 01:47:19,280
fantasy is so

2840
01:47:25,109 --> 01:47:22,320
compelling for the same uh

2841
01:47:26,070 --> 01:47:25,119
for the same uh reason whenever we think

2842
01:47:29,750 --> 01:47:26,080
of ourselves as

2843
01:47:31,669 --> 01:47:29,760
in the same boat then

2844
01:47:33,510 --> 01:47:31,679
and and when we think about like

2845
01:47:38,709 --> 01:47:33,520
survival as being really

2846
01:47:40,390 --> 01:47:38,719
salient then things become morally clear

2847
01:47:42,470 --> 01:47:40,400
that's there's an important insight

2848
01:47:44,229 --> 01:47:42,480
let's let's let's let's acknowledge

2849
01:47:45,750 --> 01:47:44,239
progress where it exists to be able to

2850
01:47:48,709 --> 01:47:45,760
say that i think

2851
01:47:49,510 --> 01:47:48,719
is then helpful when we now consider

2852
01:47:53,990 --> 01:47:49,520
more

2853
01:47:57,830 --> 01:47:55,669
i wanted to know if you think that what

2854
01:47:59,750 --> 01:47:57,840
happens in the universities is

2855
01:48:01,109 --> 01:47:59,760
isolated from society or not isolated

2856
01:48:03,350 --> 01:48:01,119
and i'll explain what i mean

2857
01:48:04,390 --> 01:48:03,360
someone like stephen hicks a philosopher

2858
01:48:06,950 --> 01:48:04,400
says well

2859
01:48:08,390 --> 01:48:06,960
you shouldn't you should be people who

2860
01:48:09,990 --> 01:48:08,400
are a part of the general public should

2861
01:48:11,830 --> 01:48:10,000
be concerned about

2862
01:48:13,189 --> 01:48:11,840
the quote-unquote corruption of the

2863
01:48:14,950 --> 01:48:13,199
humanities by the

2864
01:48:16,229 --> 01:48:14,960
post-modernist now i'm not having you

2865
01:48:18,790 --> 01:48:16,239
take a stance on that but

2866
01:48:20,470 --> 01:48:18,800
he would say you should be concerned

2867
01:48:24,470 --> 01:48:20,480
even though it seems like it's

2868
01:48:26,950 --> 01:48:24,480
a relatively obscure isolated

2869
01:48:28,470 --> 01:48:26,960
part of the whole country it's just one

2870
01:48:29,830 --> 01:48:28,480
part of the university

2871
01:48:31,510 --> 01:48:29,840
you should be concerned because what

2872
01:48:33,270 --> 01:48:31,520
happens in the university spreads

2873
01:48:34,870 --> 01:48:33,280
outwards to the rest of society

2874
01:48:37,030 --> 01:48:34,880
and i wanted to know what are your

2875
01:48:38,390 --> 01:48:37,040
thoughts on that is it true that what

2876
01:48:40,229 --> 01:48:38,400
happens in the universities

2877
01:48:41,830 --> 01:48:40,239
spread out to the rest of society so we

2878
01:48:45,510 --> 01:48:41,840
better be careful as to

2879
01:48:47,430 --> 01:48:45,520
i certainly hope so i certainly hope so

2880
01:48:49,430 --> 01:48:47,440
are these intellectuals sorry i mean to

2881
01:48:49,910 --> 01:48:49,440
say even in fields that one might not

2882
01:48:51,669 --> 01:48:49,920
think

2883
01:48:53,270 --> 01:48:51,679
have anything to do with society so for

2884
01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:53,280
example

2885
01:48:56,950 --> 01:48:55,760
english well english probably does have

2886
01:48:58,830 --> 01:48:56,960
something to do with society given that

2887
01:49:02,149 --> 01:48:58,840
we speak it but

2888
01:49:05,350 --> 01:49:02,159
english linguistics

2889
01:49:07,030 --> 01:49:05,360
women's studies gender studies so i

2890
01:49:08,870 --> 01:49:07,040
think i think that

2891
01:49:11,830 --> 01:49:08,880
higher education universities and

2892
01:49:16,550 --> 01:49:11,840
colleges are a fascinating

2893
01:49:22,550 --> 01:49:19,830
right and

2894
01:49:24,229 --> 01:49:22,560
all things considered of course higher

2895
01:49:24,709 --> 01:49:24,239
colleges and universities would not

2896
01:49:26,310 --> 01:49:24,719
exist

2897
01:49:28,149 --> 01:49:26,320
and also the branches of academic

2898
01:49:31,189 --> 01:49:28,159
knowledge wouldn't exist

2899
01:49:33,910 --> 01:49:31,199
if they didn't have some impact on the

2900
01:49:35,750 --> 01:49:33,920
rest of life often that's quite indirect

2901
01:49:38,629 --> 01:49:35,760
i think it was

2902
01:49:39,830 --> 01:49:38,639
keynes the economist who said that even

2903
01:49:41,510 --> 01:49:39,840
someone who doesn't think that they're

2904
01:49:43,350 --> 01:49:41,520
influenced by economists actually are

2905
01:49:44,870 --> 01:49:43,360
they're being influenced by some defunct

2906
01:49:48,470 --> 01:49:44,880
economist

2907
01:49:52,149 --> 01:49:48,480
from long uh

2908
01:49:55,189 --> 01:49:52,159
from long ego so these ideas do matter

2909
01:49:59,030 --> 01:49:55,199
even though it seems that they might

2910
01:50:00,470 --> 01:49:59,040
not so there's one point to be uh

2911
01:50:03,189 --> 01:50:00,480
one point to be made we should care

2912
01:50:05,990 --> 01:50:03,199
about what they say but another point

2913
01:50:08,830 --> 01:50:06,000
that needs to be made is that is that

2914
01:50:13,270 --> 01:50:08,840
all of the branches of academia

2915
01:50:16,790 --> 01:50:13,280
um need to become much more unified

2916
01:50:18,870 --> 01:50:16,800
than they are

2917
01:50:21,109 --> 01:50:18,880
and so the fragmentation of knowledge i

2918
01:50:22,470 --> 01:50:21,119
think is a problem that needs to be

2919
01:50:24,550 --> 01:50:22,480
acknowledged and i actually have a

2920
01:50:28,310 --> 01:50:24,560
biological kind of metaphor

2921
01:50:29,430 --> 01:50:28,320
for for that back to my training as a

2922
01:50:34,870 --> 01:50:29,440
biologist

2923
01:50:37,589 --> 01:50:34,880
so if you actually look at a archipelago

2924
01:50:38,870 --> 01:50:37,599
which is a collection of islands you

2925
01:50:41,270 --> 01:50:38,880
find they're biologically

2926
01:50:43,270 --> 01:50:41,280
extremely diverse many species on

2927
01:50:46,229 --> 01:50:43,280
archipelagos why is that

2928
01:50:47,830 --> 01:50:46,239
well it's because of barriers to gene

2929
01:50:50,790 --> 01:50:47,840
flow

2930
01:50:51,990 --> 01:50:50,800
so if you're isolated on an island then

2931
01:50:53,990 --> 01:50:52,000
there's no gene flow with other

2932
01:50:55,589 --> 01:50:54,000
islands and so those populations tend to

2933
01:50:57,109 --> 01:50:55,599
drift apart before lying they become

2934
01:50:58,709 --> 01:50:57,119
different species

2935
01:51:00,629 --> 01:50:58,719
and they can't there couldn't any breed

2936
01:51:02,709 --> 01:51:00,639
even if they were

2937
01:51:04,629 --> 01:51:02,719
brought together also on single islands

2938
01:51:06,310 --> 01:51:04,639
there's species that occupy different

2939
01:51:07,270 --> 01:51:06,320
niches and so they become different for

2940
01:51:11,189 --> 01:51:07,280
that

2941
01:51:14,310 --> 01:51:11,199
very

2942
01:51:19,669 --> 01:51:14,320
diverse okay got that now

2943
01:51:22,950 --> 01:51:19,679
think of academia as an archipelago

2944
01:51:24,790 --> 01:51:22,960
in which with many islands of

2945
01:51:26,629 --> 01:51:24,800
of knowledge so basically you have all

2946
01:51:29,910 --> 01:51:26,639
of these different

2947
01:51:32,709 --> 01:51:29,920
groups schools of thought

2948
01:51:34,390 --> 01:51:32,719
that are developing their ideas largely

2949
01:51:36,790 --> 01:51:34,400
in isolation

2950
01:51:38,310 --> 01:51:36,800
from each other and this includes not

2951
01:51:40,470 --> 01:51:38,320
just the major disciplines but all the

2952
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:40,480
schools of thought within any given

2953
01:51:43,589 --> 01:51:42,000
discipline they're not talking to each

2954
01:51:44,950 --> 01:51:43,599
other so what happens

2955
01:51:46,950 --> 01:51:44,960
well they begin to develop different

2956
01:51:48,629 --> 01:51:46,960
vocabularies use the same words in

2957
01:51:49,430 --> 01:51:48,639
different ways it goes this way it goes

2958
01:51:51,510 --> 01:51:49,440
there

2959
01:51:53,350 --> 01:51:51,520
pretty soon what you get is like a form

2960
01:51:57,189 --> 01:51:53,360
of cultural speciation

2961
01:52:01,589 --> 01:51:59,589
no one can understand each other it's a

2962
01:52:05,189 --> 01:52:01,599
tower of babel you might

2963
01:52:06,629 --> 01:52:05,199
so so that's not a good thing so

2964
01:52:08,310 --> 01:52:06,639
that's that's the kind of diversity

2965
01:52:09,030 --> 01:52:08,320
that's not worth wanting diversity is

2966
01:52:11,830 --> 01:52:09,040
not good

2967
01:52:13,510 --> 01:52:11,840
per se there's forms of diversity that

2968
01:52:15,830 --> 01:52:13,520
are not worth

2969
01:52:17,910 --> 01:52:15,840
wanting and that's one of them so there

2970
01:52:20,310 --> 01:52:17,920
needs to have some sense in which

2971
01:52:21,350 --> 01:52:20,320
in which people can communicate with

2972
01:52:23,030 --> 01:52:21,360
each other

2973
01:52:25,030 --> 01:52:23,040
and that's not happening that's one

2974
01:52:25,589 --> 01:52:25,040
major goal evolutionary theory plays is

2975
01:52:29,109 --> 01:52:25,599
to

2976
01:52:30,870 --> 01:52:29,119
of knowledge

2977
01:52:32,550 --> 01:52:30,880
as it already has in the biological

2978
01:52:34,550 --> 01:52:32,560
sciences and can

2979
01:52:35,750 --> 01:52:34,560
for all things human okay i was just

2980
01:52:38,149 --> 01:52:35,760
about to ask so how

2981
01:52:40,070 --> 01:52:38,159
do you see it being unified but you said

2982
01:52:43,109 --> 01:52:40,080
it would probably start from

2983
01:52:44,950 --> 01:52:43,119
evolutionary sciences and this is a hard

2984
01:52:48,310 --> 01:52:44,960
point to make because it seems

2985
01:52:49,510 --> 01:52:48,320
um self-serving it seems uh

2986
01:52:53,030 --> 01:52:49,520
what's the word i want to use

2987
01:52:56,390 --> 01:52:53,040
proprietorial or or um

2988
01:52:57,270 --> 01:52:56,400
totalizing as is often put but there's

2989
01:52:58,709 --> 01:52:57,280
um

2990
01:53:01,109 --> 01:52:58,719
hold on a second what the heck is

2991
01:53:02,790 --> 01:53:01,119
totalizing totalizing yeah

2992
01:53:04,470 --> 01:53:02,800
what do you mean by that uh what's the

2993
01:53:05,189 --> 01:53:04,480
word of totalizing it's a postmodern

2994
01:53:08,709 --> 01:53:05,199
term it's

2995
01:53:11,990 --> 01:53:08,719
it's basically that you're kind of

2996
01:53:15,350 --> 01:53:12,000
imposing a world view on others

2997
01:53:17,750 --> 01:53:15,360
and privileging it okay so

2998
01:53:18,870 --> 01:53:17,760
and of course there's a trigger

2999
01:53:22,310 --> 01:53:18,880
sensitivity

3000
01:53:23,750 --> 01:53:22,320
to to that which we can appreciate but

3001
01:53:31,030 --> 01:53:23,760
that loses the fact that

3002
01:53:31,040 --> 01:53:35,750
that when you go back to

3003
01:53:40,950 --> 01:53:38,870
the way darwin approached different

3004
01:53:42,470 --> 01:53:40,960
people back then before evolution we had

3005
01:53:43,510 --> 01:53:42,480
naturalists they studied plants and

3006
01:53:44,629 --> 01:53:43,520
animals

3007
01:53:48,790 --> 01:53:44,639
all these different branches of

3008
01:53:54,070 --> 01:53:52,390
biogeography all the different

3009
01:53:56,870 --> 01:53:54,080
contrivances of plants and animals

3010
01:53:58,550 --> 01:53:56,880
natural natural history

3011
01:53:59,990 --> 01:53:58,560
and what darwin did was he actually

3012
01:54:01,990 --> 01:54:00,000
managed to put these

3013
01:54:03,589 --> 01:54:02,000
together a single theory that made sense

3014
01:54:07,030 --> 01:54:03,599
of all of these branches

3015
01:54:07,990 --> 01:54:07,040
of knowledge so and that didn't

3016
01:54:10,629 --> 01:54:08,000
eliminate them

3017
01:54:12,709 --> 01:54:10,639
it organized them so that's what can

3018
01:54:16,280 --> 01:54:12,719
take place now is taking place now

3019
01:54:17,669 --> 01:54:16,290
quite rapidly in historical terms um so

3020
01:54:20,790 --> 01:54:17,679
[Music]

3021
01:54:23,109 --> 01:54:20,800
so that's that's a great thing when do

3022
01:54:28,070 --> 01:54:23,119
you think the left goes too far

3023
01:54:35,910 --> 01:54:32,550
i think that anyone goes too far

3024
01:54:37,589 --> 01:54:35,920
when they uh let me just try to think

3025
01:54:48,830 --> 01:54:37,599
about this for

3026
01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:59,750
so

3027
01:55:04,390 --> 01:55:01,750
i think that anyone goes through fire

3028
01:55:07,589 --> 01:55:04,400
when they when they

3029
01:55:10,390 --> 01:55:07,599
deny the authority of empirical evidence

3030
01:55:13,350 --> 01:55:10,400
if they're not being science-based

3031
01:55:14,950 --> 01:55:13,360
uh trying to work out what's actually

3032
01:55:16,709 --> 01:55:14,960
out there the facts of the matter

3033
01:55:20,550 --> 01:55:16,719
and then proceeding on that basis then

3034
01:55:23,510 --> 01:55:20,560
they become unmoored from

3035
01:55:24,229 --> 01:55:23,520
from reality and then the second problem

3036
01:55:32,870 --> 01:55:24,239
is

3037
01:55:34,070 --> 01:55:32,880
as the orion these little academic

3038
01:55:36,790 --> 01:55:34,080
tribes that we've

3039
01:55:39,030 --> 01:55:36,800
talked about i think is when they become

3040
01:55:41,430 --> 01:55:39,040
just universes in their own

3041
01:55:42,390 --> 01:55:41,440
in their own right then that becomes

3042
01:55:44,149 --> 01:55:42,400
part of the problem

3043
01:55:46,550 --> 01:55:44,159
sometimes it becomes a problem with like

3044
01:55:49,030 --> 01:55:46,560
you know

3045
01:55:49,990 --> 01:55:49,040
fighting between tribes but even without

3046
01:55:54,550 --> 01:55:50,000
that

3047
01:55:55,589 --> 01:55:54,560
each other

3048
01:55:58,870 --> 01:55:55,599
and it's that point they become

3049
01:56:01,589 --> 01:55:58,880
irrelevant and nobody should care other

3050
01:56:04,229 --> 01:56:01,599
than

3051
01:56:05,750 --> 01:56:04,239
their own their own kind and they wink

3052
01:56:07,910 --> 01:56:05,760
out of existence

3053
01:56:09,510 --> 01:56:07,920
you know after a period of after a

3054
01:56:11,350 --> 01:56:09,520
period of time so there has to be some

3055
01:56:12,950 --> 01:56:11,360
sense of remaining connected there's

3056
01:56:15,109 --> 01:56:12,960
some kind of common

3057
01:56:17,910 --> 01:56:15,119
project so that when we communicate we

3058
01:56:21,990 --> 01:56:17,920
actually are trying to do something

3059
01:56:24,390 --> 01:56:22,000
uh important at a large scale

3060
01:56:25,990 --> 01:56:24,400
which involves communicating with other

3061
01:56:28,629 --> 01:56:26,000
uh

3062
01:56:29,270 --> 01:56:28,639
people other other perspectives and so

3063
01:56:31,109 --> 01:56:29,280
on

3064
01:56:33,589 --> 01:56:31,119
and then actually working towards those

3065
01:56:35,430 --> 01:56:33,599
those solutions

3066
01:56:37,109 --> 01:56:35,440
i was going to ask you about the meme

3067
01:56:39,350 --> 01:56:37,119
gene interaction

3068
01:56:41,430 --> 01:56:39,360
so when is it or what are examples of

3069
01:56:43,430 --> 01:56:41,440
memes that have lasted so long i guess

3070
01:56:45,270 --> 01:56:43,440
we can only talk about human society

3071
01:56:47,270 --> 01:56:45,280
what memes have lasted so long such that

3072
01:56:50,790 --> 01:56:47,280
they affect

3073
01:56:54,229 --> 01:56:50,800
our genes the direction of evolution

3074
01:56:57,990 --> 01:56:54,239
maybe sexual selection portion of time

3075
01:57:01,109 --> 01:56:58,000
talking about memes and let's begin with

3076
01:57:02,629 --> 01:57:01,119
the derivation of the term and the

3077
01:57:04,470 --> 01:57:02,639
person who claimed it

3078
01:57:05,669 --> 01:57:04,480
of course it was richard dawkins and it

3079
01:57:08,149 --> 01:57:05,679
was

3080
01:57:10,070 --> 01:57:08,159
part of his book the selfish gene and

3081
01:57:10,629 --> 01:57:10,080
and then meme was some kind of cultural

3082
01:57:14,390 --> 01:57:10,639
analog

3083
01:57:16,229 --> 01:57:14,400
to gene and so you can't really

3084
01:57:18,070 --> 01:57:16,239
understand memes the way dawkins

3085
01:57:20,709 --> 01:57:18,080
introduce the term

3086
01:57:21,750 --> 01:57:20,719
without thinking also about genes the

3087
01:57:24,149 --> 01:57:21,760
way

3088
01:57:26,950 --> 01:57:24,159
dawkins conceptualize that term which is

3089
01:57:29,350 --> 01:57:26,960
really kind of esoteric for dawkins

3090
01:57:30,310 --> 01:57:29,360
a gene was actually not a physical

3091
01:57:33,270 --> 01:57:30,320
entity

3092
01:57:35,030 --> 01:57:33,280
it was some kind of unit for information

3093
01:57:36,229 --> 01:57:35,040
he thought about genes in an extremely

3094
01:57:39,990 --> 01:57:36,239
atomistic

3095
01:57:42,709 --> 01:57:40,000
sense he gave genes agency

3096
01:57:45,430 --> 01:57:42,719
he called them selfish and when in fact

3097
01:57:47,270 --> 01:57:45,440
genes are part of a biological system

3098
01:57:48,870 --> 01:57:47,280
they always interact with other genes

3099
01:57:50,310 --> 01:57:48,880
and they always interact with the other

3100
01:57:52,629 --> 01:57:50,320
components of the

3101
01:57:54,550 --> 01:57:52,639
organism so there's a systemic approach

3102
01:57:57,750 --> 01:57:54,560
to evolution

3103
01:57:58,629 --> 01:57:57,760
which includes genes in a more systemic

3104
01:58:02,070 --> 01:57:58,639
way

3105
01:58:02,470 --> 01:58:02,080
than dawkins did and without giving them

3106
01:58:05,430 --> 01:58:02,480
such

3107
01:58:06,470 --> 01:58:05,440
agency as selfish entities in their own

3108
01:58:09,350 --> 01:58:06,480
right

3109
01:58:09,910 --> 01:58:09,360
and so given the fact that dawkins

3110
01:58:14,070 --> 01:58:09,920
concept

3111
01:58:17,830 --> 01:58:14,080
of a gene was actually quite problematic

3112
01:58:20,550 --> 01:58:17,840
and and biology has moved beyond it

3113
01:58:21,910 --> 01:58:20,560
then we should be suspicious from the

3114
01:58:25,910 --> 01:58:21,920
beginning about

3115
01:58:27,750 --> 01:58:25,920
his concept of meme which inherited

3116
01:58:30,550 --> 01:58:27,760
most of the same properties he thought

3117
01:58:33,270 --> 01:58:30,560
of memes as as very atomistic

3118
01:58:33,990 --> 01:58:33,280
kind of evolving on their own he didn't

3119
01:58:35,910 --> 01:58:34,000
think of

3120
01:58:37,430 --> 01:58:35,920
complexes of memes he actually had a

3121
01:58:38,470 --> 01:58:37,440
term for them he called them meme

3122
01:58:41,510 --> 01:58:38,480
complexes

3123
01:58:43,510 --> 01:58:41,520
but never much thought about them um

3124
01:58:45,350 --> 01:58:43,520
he emphasized mostly the possibility

3125
01:58:46,870 --> 01:58:45,360
that memes can become parasitic

3126
01:58:48,629 --> 01:58:46,880
sorry complexes of memes are just

3127
01:58:50,790 --> 01:58:48,639
collections of memes yeah they're like

3128
01:58:53,990 --> 01:58:50,800
like complexes of genes if there's a

3129
01:58:57,750 --> 01:58:54,000
genotype why can't there be a memo type

3130
01:59:00,870 --> 01:58:57,760
well memo type doesn't exist as a term

3131
01:59:02,790 --> 01:59:00,880
meme complexes does but hardly anything

3132
01:59:05,270 --> 01:59:02,800
is done

3133
01:59:06,950 --> 01:59:05,280
with it and so we're left with the idea

3134
01:59:08,709 --> 01:59:06,960
that there's little bits of information

3135
01:59:09,750 --> 01:59:08,719
little cultural units that are kind of

3136
01:59:13,270 --> 01:59:09,760
evolving in some

3137
01:59:15,189 --> 01:59:13,280
soup on their own um

3138
01:59:16,950 --> 01:59:15,199
and you know some examples are like the

3139
01:59:18,709 --> 01:59:16,960
phrase of a song you know the first

3140
01:59:19,830 --> 01:59:18,719
phrase of happy birthday to you is a

3141
01:59:23,270 --> 01:59:19,840
meme

3142
01:59:24,229 --> 01:59:23,280
that spreads and so on and and so forth

3143
01:59:27,910 --> 01:59:24,239
and so

3144
01:59:29,510 --> 01:59:27,920
evolution

3145
01:59:31,030 --> 01:59:29,520
as it's developed i mean there are lots

3146
01:59:32,149 --> 01:59:31,040
of people that became entranced by the

3147
01:59:34,070 --> 01:59:32,159
concept of memes

3148
01:59:35,910 --> 01:59:34,080
and tried to do something with it there

3149
01:59:37,830 --> 01:59:35,920
were journals there was the whole field

3150
01:59:39,350 --> 01:59:37,840
of mimetics and so on and

3151
01:59:41,109 --> 01:59:39,360
and do you know those have tended to

3152
01:59:42,790 --> 01:59:41,119
peter groud

3153
01:59:45,510 --> 01:59:42,800
while the field of cultural evolution as

3154
01:59:47,430 --> 01:59:45,520
a whole as virgin

3155
01:59:49,350 --> 01:59:47,440
and so how can we talk about cultural

3156
01:59:52,070 --> 01:59:49,360
evolution

3157
01:59:53,750 --> 01:59:52,080
in some sense without buying into the

3158
01:59:56,550 --> 01:59:53,760
concept of memes is

3159
01:59:58,070 --> 01:59:56,560
we still use the word meme as a kind of

3160
02:00:00,310 --> 01:59:58,080
a shorthand for

3161
02:00:01,990 --> 02:00:00,320
some trade since we don't know the

3162
02:00:03,270 --> 02:00:02,000
mechanistic basis really what we're

3163
02:00:04,790 --> 02:00:03,280
talking about is some trait at the

3164
02:00:06,870 --> 02:00:04,800
phenotypic level

3165
02:00:08,470 --> 02:00:06,880
so when we want to talk about it a trait

3166
02:00:10,149 --> 02:00:08,480
that's learned and culturally

3167
02:00:12,390 --> 02:00:10,159
transmitted we call it a meme

3168
02:00:14,470 --> 02:00:12,400
that's fine but don't associate it with

3169
02:00:18,229 --> 02:00:14,480
some of these other things that

3170
02:00:21,510 --> 02:00:18,239
that is part of the dawkins

3171
02:00:23,990 --> 02:00:21,520
terminology now um

3172
02:00:25,750 --> 02:00:24,000
in a video that you asked me to watch

3173
02:00:27,189 --> 02:00:25,760
when jordan peterson he talked about

3174
02:00:30,470 --> 02:00:27,199
jungian

3175
02:00:33,270 --> 02:00:30,480
archetypes and if you go back to

3176
02:00:35,510 --> 02:00:33,280
some of the early psychological thinkers

3177
02:00:38,830 --> 02:00:35,520
such as jung and freud

3178
02:00:43,430 --> 02:00:38,840
you have to appreciate how

3179
02:00:47,830 --> 02:00:45,270
how primitive the evolutionary thinking

3180
02:00:49,350 --> 02:00:47,840
was at that time so although they were

3181
02:00:50,870 --> 02:00:49,360
big thinkers and they were trying to

3182
02:00:53,189 --> 02:00:50,880
apprehend something

3183
02:00:54,629 --> 02:00:53,199
uh fred's concept of the unconscious and

3184
02:00:58,390 --> 02:00:54,639
the id and

3185
02:00:59,750 --> 02:00:58,400
his basic concepts and jungian concepts

3186
02:01:02,470 --> 02:00:59,760
such as the archetype

3187
02:01:02,790 --> 02:01:02,480
i mean there were reaching for something

3188
02:01:05,910 --> 02:01:02,800
but

3189
02:01:08,229 --> 02:01:05,920
we really have to evaluate it

3190
02:01:09,350 --> 02:01:08,239
critically from a modern evolutionary

3191
02:01:11,510 --> 02:01:09,360
perspective

3192
02:01:12,709 --> 02:01:11,520
again there was a baby in the bathwater

3193
02:01:14,790 --> 02:01:12,719
but there was also

3194
02:01:16,070 --> 02:01:14,800
quite a lot of bath water and we it's up

3195
02:01:18,070 --> 02:01:16,080
to us to

3196
02:01:19,910 --> 02:01:18,080
sort it out i think there is an

3197
02:01:22,950 --> 02:01:19,920
intriguing correspondence with what

3198
02:01:24,870 --> 02:01:22,960
jung talked about his archetypes with

3199
02:01:27,109 --> 02:01:24,880
what evolutionary psychologists talk

3200
02:01:28,790 --> 02:01:27,119
about as modules

3201
02:01:30,470 --> 02:01:28,800
and that's i think a better match than

3202
02:01:33,990 --> 02:01:30,480
memes

3203
02:01:37,189 --> 02:01:34,000
so evolutionary psychologists properly

3204
02:01:42,070 --> 02:01:37,199
say that that our evolved psychology is

3205
02:01:43,990 --> 02:01:42,080
highly adapted to solve the problems of

3206
02:01:45,189 --> 02:01:44,000
survival and reproduction in ancestral

3207
02:01:47,830 --> 02:01:45,199
environments and

3208
02:01:49,750 --> 02:01:47,840
often they take the form of of modules

3209
02:01:52,550 --> 02:01:49,760
specialized circuits that

3210
02:01:53,910 --> 02:01:52,560
that are dedicated to solving this

3211
02:01:57,750 --> 02:01:53,920
problem or that

3212
02:01:58,470 --> 02:01:57,760
and so um and so we could imagine for

3213
02:02:01,750 --> 02:01:58,480
example

3214
02:02:04,070 --> 02:02:01,760
an us them psychology which is like

3215
02:02:05,109 --> 02:02:04,080
built into us that gets triggered under

3216
02:02:07,270 --> 02:02:05,119
appropriate

3217
02:02:08,470 --> 02:02:07,280
uh circuits of mating psychology all of

3218
02:02:11,750 --> 02:02:08,480
these sorts of

3219
02:02:16,070 --> 02:02:11,760
so

3220
02:02:16,950 --> 02:02:16,080
modules of evolutionary psychologists

3221
02:02:22,149 --> 02:02:16,960
and

3222
02:02:24,550 --> 02:02:22,159
reaching for with archives yeah maybe

3223
02:02:25,910 --> 02:02:24,560
maybe that's worth that's worth

3224
02:02:29,669 --> 02:02:25,920
exploring

3225
02:02:33,270 --> 02:02:29,679
also one of the things that's happened

3226
02:02:35,750 --> 02:02:33,280
recently is that a lot of what's been

3227
02:02:37,830 --> 02:02:35,760
attributed to genetic evolution

3228
02:02:39,510 --> 02:02:37,840
is now needs to be attributed to

3229
02:02:41,750 --> 02:02:39,520
cultural evolution

3230
02:02:43,430 --> 02:02:41,760
which is and take language for example

3231
02:02:47,350 --> 02:02:43,440
if you look at what chomsky

3232
02:02:49,350 --> 02:02:47,360
people like noel chomsky noam chonsky

3233
02:02:51,030 --> 02:02:49,360
thought about language and also steve

3234
02:02:54,470 --> 02:02:51,040
pinker it was

3235
02:02:57,910 --> 02:02:54,480
like a product of genetic evolution

3236
02:03:00,149 --> 02:02:57,920
there's a module for language

3237
02:03:01,750 --> 02:03:00,159
that kind of that kind of thing the

3238
02:03:05,189 --> 02:03:01,760
language instinct is

3239
02:03:07,030 --> 02:03:05,199
steve pinker put it there's a universal

3240
02:03:08,950 --> 02:03:07,040
grammar that we need to

3241
02:03:10,550 --> 02:03:08,960
decipher all of which makes it sound as

3242
02:03:11,990 --> 02:03:10,560
if language was something that evolved

3243
02:03:15,270 --> 02:03:12,000
directly by

3244
02:03:18,310 --> 02:03:15,280
genetic evolution but now it seems uh

3245
02:03:21,830 --> 02:03:18,320
to an amazing degree that language

3246
02:03:24,149 --> 02:03:21,840
is much more of a cultural construction

3247
02:03:26,310 --> 02:03:24,159
that has arisen more than once in

3248
02:03:28,229 --> 02:03:26,320
different geographical regions by

3249
02:03:30,870 --> 02:03:28,239
cultural evolution and the grammars that

3250
02:03:34,870 --> 02:03:30,880
evolved by cultural evolution actually

3251
02:03:36,229 --> 02:03:34,880
need not be universal no need

3252
02:03:37,990 --> 02:03:36,239
for that there's so many different

3253
02:03:40,470 --> 02:03:38,000
cultural

3254
02:03:42,070 --> 02:03:40,480
experiments and that many aspects of

3255
02:03:44,870 --> 02:03:42,080
human psychology

3256
02:03:47,589 --> 02:03:44,880
which we would think because they're so

3257
02:03:50,310 --> 02:03:47,599
unconscious and intuitive and so on

3258
02:03:51,270 --> 02:03:50,320
we'd think that there would be a a

3259
02:03:52,950 --> 02:03:51,280
modulus

3260
02:03:54,950 --> 02:03:52,960
evolutionary a genetically evolved

3261
02:03:58,470 --> 02:03:54,960
module

3262
02:03:59,910 --> 02:03:58,480
maybe not um maybe they're cultural

3263
02:04:00,950 --> 02:03:59,920
gadgets that have been around for so

3264
02:04:04,790 --> 02:04:00,960
long that

3265
02:04:06,149 --> 02:04:04,800
they've uh they seem less

3266
02:04:08,709 --> 02:04:06,159
they seem like first nature actually

3267
02:04:10,229 --> 02:04:08,719
they're second nature so

3268
02:04:11,910 --> 02:04:10,239
a lot which has been attributed to

3269
02:04:13,990 --> 02:04:11,920
genetic evolution

3270
02:04:15,589 --> 02:04:14,000
might need to be attributed to cultural

3271
02:04:16,550 --> 02:04:15,599
evolution that's how deep cultural

3272
02:04:21,030 --> 02:04:16,560
evolution

3273
02:04:23,030 --> 02:04:21,040
goes and that's pretty darn interesting

3274
02:04:24,870 --> 02:04:23,040
you mentioned in your book this view of

3275
02:04:27,990 --> 02:04:24,880
life that there's

3276
02:04:30,390 --> 02:04:28,000
innovation oasises which are like

3277
02:04:31,270 --> 02:04:30,400
geographic regions where innovation

3278
02:04:33,270 --> 02:04:31,280
happens

3279
02:04:35,350 --> 02:04:33,280
yeah and that there's some principles

3280
02:04:37,910 --> 02:04:35,360
that guide the growth of such a

3281
02:04:39,189 --> 02:04:37,920
oasis and then you outline seven i don't

3282
02:04:40,390 --> 02:04:39,199
know if you came up with the seven or

3283
02:04:43,350 --> 02:04:40,400
someone else did

3284
02:04:44,790 --> 02:04:43,360
well that was uh based on the work of

3285
02:04:48,629 --> 02:04:44,800
victor huang

3286
02:04:48,950 --> 02:04:48,639
who is a uh a leader in entrepreneurship

3287
02:04:53,189 --> 02:04:48,960
and

3288
02:04:57,910 --> 02:04:53,199
trying to make there

3289
02:05:00,550 --> 02:04:57,920
is that has to do with adaptability

3290
02:05:01,430 --> 02:05:00,560
um so many cultures are well adapted to

3291
02:05:03,589 --> 02:05:01,440
their environments

3292
02:05:05,910 --> 02:05:03,599
but how how adaptable are they to change

3293
02:05:07,830 --> 02:05:05,920
how how are they capable of actually

3294
02:05:11,109 --> 02:05:07,840
changing and adapting to

3295
02:05:11,990 --> 02:05:11,119
new circumstances that requires some

3296
02:05:15,830 --> 02:05:12,000
features

3297
02:05:19,189 --> 02:05:15,840
of a culture that don't always

3298
02:05:21,109 --> 02:05:19,199
exist and so i provided

3299
02:05:23,189 --> 02:05:21,119
a couple of examples from the business

3300
02:05:24,550 --> 02:05:23,199
world of companies that are not just

3301
02:05:27,750 --> 02:05:24,560
well adapted

3302
02:05:29,830 --> 02:05:27,760
but actually are capable of adapting

3303
02:05:31,910 --> 02:05:29,840
to new circumstances one of which was

3304
02:05:35,430 --> 02:05:31,920
toyota which is famous

3305
02:05:38,550 --> 02:05:35,440
as an adaptable corporation

3306
02:05:40,149 --> 02:05:38,560
and in the case of huang's work he

3307
02:05:41,430 --> 02:05:40,159
points out that isn't it interesting

3308
02:05:43,830 --> 02:05:41,440
that

3309
02:05:46,069 --> 02:05:43,840
i mean innovation is the name of the

3310
02:05:46,790 --> 02:05:46,079
game every region of the world every

3311
02:05:50,790 --> 02:05:46,800
university

3312
02:05:53,830 --> 02:05:50,800
every city wants to be entrepreneurial

3313
02:05:56,310 --> 02:05:53,840
and to be able to change

3314
02:05:57,350 --> 02:05:56,320
for the better but there's huge

3315
02:06:00,629 --> 02:05:57,360
variation

3316
02:06:03,910 --> 02:06:00,639
as hwang points out in

3317
02:06:04,790 --> 02:06:03,920
their ability to do so and silicon

3318
02:06:06,709 --> 02:06:04,800
valley

3319
02:06:07,830 --> 02:06:06,719
is an example what is it what's the

3320
02:06:11,669 --> 02:06:07,840
magic

3321
02:06:14,870 --> 02:06:11,679
ingredient and in a nutshell

3322
02:06:17,910 --> 02:06:14,880
and this is so very interesting

3323
02:06:20,950 --> 02:06:17,920
he says that there's two vital

3324
02:06:22,550 --> 02:06:20,960
ingredients one is

3325
02:06:24,709 --> 02:06:22,560
the need to cooperate it has to be

3326
02:06:28,950 --> 02:06:24,719
really cooperative culture

3327
02:06:33,589 --> 02:06:30,470
and those two things don't go together

3328
02:06:37,109 --> 02:06:33,599
typically we cooperate in our in groups

3329
02:06:39,589 --> 02:06:37,119
right and our in-groups are relatively

3330
02:06:40,149 --> 02:06:39,599
homogeneous so it's kind of a special

3331
02:06:43,830 --> 02:06:40,159
thing

3332
02:06:44,550 --> 02:06:43,840
to have a culture where you cooperate

3333
02:06:48,149 --> 02:06:44,560
with

3334
02:06:51,030 --> 02:06:48,159
diverse people and that is

3335
02:06:51,589 --> 02:06:51,040
what takes place happens to take place

3336
02:06:56,229 --> 02:06:51,599
in

3337
02:06:58,470 --> 02:06:56,239
of the world what are some other

3338
02:07:01,589 --> 02:06:58,480
innovation oasises besides

3339
02:07:03,910 --> 02:07:01,599
silicon valley he points to israel and

3340
02:07:06,870 --> 02:07:03,920
of course right away you have to

3341
02:07:08,629 --> 02:07:06,880
qualify what we mean by being inclusive

3342
02:07:09,589 --> 02:07:08,639
and diverse because israel is the very

3343
02:07:14,229 --> 02:07:09,599
opposite

3344
02:07:18,069 --> 02:07:16,149
for example so what does he mean he

3345
02:07:21,750 --> 02:07:18,079
means very narrowly

3346
02:07:23,669 --> 02:07:21,760
that the compulsory draft in israel

3347
02:07:25,510 --> 02:07:23,679
takes people from all sectors of an of

3348
02:07:28,950 --> 02:07:25,520
israeli society

3349
02:07:30,629 --> 02:07:28,960
and throws them together okay and so now

3350
02:07:31,750 --> 02:07:30,639
they're cooperating in a military

3351
02:07:33,750 --> 02:07:31,760
context

3352
02:07:35,750 --> 02:07:33,760
and then when they leave the military

3353
02:07:38,870 --> 02:07:35,760
then they're able to cooperate in other

3354
02:07:41,350 --> 02:07:38,880
contexts so it it takes the

3355
02:07:42,709 --> 02:07:41,360
diversity that exists within israeli

3356
02:07:46,510 --> 02:07:42,719
society

3357
02:07:47,830 --> 02:07:46,520
and it causes that to be

3358
02:07:50,310 --> 02:07:47,840
[Music]

3359
02:07:51,270 --> 02:07:50,320
cooperative and in the case of silicon

3360
02:07:55,910 --> 02:07:51,280
valley

3361
02:07:59,030 --> 02:07:58,229
maybe a little bit surprisingly much

3362
02:08:02,390 --> 02:07:59,040
more

3363
02:08:04,870 --> 02:08:02,400
easy going than you might think that

3364
02:08:06,390 --> 02:08:04,880
if you're an entrepreneur you're not

3365
02:08:07,589 --> 02:08:06,400
guarded of your ideas you're not

3366
02:08:10,790 --> 02:08:07,599
actually

3367
02:08:13,430 --> 02:08:10,800
out just to make a pile of money often

3368
02:08:16,870 --> 02:08:13,440
you have some kind of vision

3369
02:08:19,350 --> 02:08:16,880
and you're quite generous in in

3370
02:08:21,430 --> 02:08:19,360
sharing it people you know will invest

3371
02:08:23,350 --> 02:08:21,440
money on a handshake

3372
02:08:24,550 --> 02:08:23,360
a lawyer that juan quote says that if

3373
02:08:26,390 --> 02:08:24,560
you're a really good businessman you

3374
02:08:28,149 --> 02:08:26,400
don't need a lawyer at all

3375
02:08:30,790 --> 02:08:28,159
because you have trusting relationships

3376
02:08:35,270 --> 02:08:30,800
and and then actually if somebody

3377
02:08:35,910 --> 02:08:35,280
um acts selfishly in a context like that

3378
02:08:37,510 --> 02:08:35,920
because it's

3379
02:08:40,069 --> 02:08:37,520
quite a closed community everyone knows

3380
02:08:43,830 --> 02:08:40,079
each other well soon enough it

3381
02:08:45,270 --> 02:08:43,840
gets out that so-and-so didn't

3382
02:08:47,910 --> 02:08:45,280
behave right and nobody wants to do

3383
02:08:50,709 --> 02:08:47,920
business with them and so there's a

3384
02:08:51,030 --> 02:08:50,719
a very informal level of policing which

3385
02:08:54,870 --> 02:08:51,040
is

3386
02:08:58,229 --> 02:08:54,880
require legal

3387
02:09:00,069 --> 02:08:58,239
uh uh restrictions and then once again

3388
02:09:02,069 --> 02:09:00,079
that's diverse in a sense but it leaves

3389
02:09:04,709 --> 02:09:02,079
all sorts of people out of the system

3390
02:09:05,430 --> 02:09:04,719
as well it could be very clubby and and

3391
02:09:07,510 --> 02:09:05,440
so on

3392
02:09:09,270 --> 02:09:07,520
uh so when we talk about being diverse

3393
02:09:13,109 --> 02:09:09,280
we have to qualify it

3394
02:09:15,430 --> 02:09:13,119
quite heavily well i was thinking

3395
02:09:17,510 --> 02:09:15,440
selfishly one of my goals i have a

3396
02:09:20,229 --> 02:09:17,520
company called indie film teo which is

3397
02:09:21,030 --> 02:09:20,239
a non-profit and it helps filmmakers

3398
02:09:22,550 --> 02:09:21,040
with their arts

3399
02:09:24,629 --> 02:09:22,560
so that they can be profitable with it

3400
02:09:27,350 --> 02:09:24,639
one of my goals is to make

3401
02:09:27,830 --> 02:09:27,360
toronto possibly the silicon valley of

3402
02:09:29,910 --> 02:09:27,840
film

3403
02:09:31,510 --> 02:09:29,920
yeah okay and then i was thinking oh

3404
02:09:32,950 --> 02:09:31,520
that's so cool that this guy

3405
02:09:34,790 --> 02:09:32,960
david stone wilson evolutionary

3406
02:09:35,430 --> 02:09:34,800
biologist outlined for me great thank

3407
02:09:37,510 --> 02:09:35,440
you

3408
02:09:39,189 --> 02:09:37,520
seven principles that need to be

3409
02:09:39,830 --> 02:09:39,199
engendered in this society in order to

3410
02:09:43,589 --> 02:09:39,840
induce

3411
02:09:45,189 --> 02:09:43,599
such such a oasis of innovation

3412
02:09:47,669 --> 02:09:45,199
right and then i was thinking wait a

3413
02:09:49,669 --> 02:09:47,679
second seek fairness not advantage

3414
02:09:51,430 --> 02:09:49,679
was one of the principles if i'm not

3415
02:09:52,310 --> 02:09:51,440
mistaken and then i was thinking wait

3416
02:09:54,790 --> 02:09:52,320
but that

3417
02:09:56,310 --> 02:09:54,800
in my opinion i used to live in san fran

3418
02:09:57,030 --> 02:09:56,320
and i know a little bit of the business

3419
02:09:58,950 --> 02:09:57,040
world

3420
02:10:00,229 --> 02:09:58,960
i don't know if that characterizes

3421
02:10:02,709 --> 02:10:00,239
silicon valley because

3422
02:10:03,510 --> 02:10:02,719
there is a bit of and a bit is a bit of

3423
02:10:05,910 --> 02:10:03,520
an understatement

3424
02:10:07,510 --> 02:10:05,920
there's a bit of bullying and and

3425
02:10:10,550 --> 02:10:07,520
corporate bullying

3426
02:10:13,109 --> 02:10:10,560
that happens now let's go to

3427
02:10:14,790 --> 02:10:13,119
hollywood seek fairness not advantage

3428
02:10:15,990 --> 02:10:14,800
definitely not equality that hollywood

3429
02:10:17,910 --> 02:10:16,000
has nor

3430
02:10:19,669 --> 02:10:17,920
does it have does it have the second

3431
02:10:23,270 --> 02:10:19,679
trait which is open doors and listen

3432
02:10:25,750 --> 02:10:23,280
well there's um i was very cliquey

3433
02:10:26,950 --> 02:10:25,760
i wish that i could channel my friend

3434
02:10:30,229 --> 02:10:26,960
victor

3435
02:10:31,910 --> 02:10:30,239
to have this conversation and there's

3436
02:10:35,109 --> 02:10:31,920
one dynamic that goes on that might

3437
02:10:39,830 --> 02:10:35,119
explain some of this which is like super

3438
02:10:44,310 --> 02:10:42,229
and it has to do with once a company

3439
02:10:48,870 --> 02:10:44,320
succeeds

3440
02:10:51,510 --> 02:10:48,880
and and then becomes proprietorial

3441
02:10:53,990 --> 02:10:51,520
so there's i've become fascinated with

3442
02:10:57,109 --> 02:10:54,000
the open source software

3443
02:10:59,030 --> 02:10:57,119
development and all of its analogs

3444
02:11:00,790 --> 02:10:59,040
the linux development and stuff like

3445
02:11:02,229 --> 02:11:00,800
that by the way this movie that you're

3446
02:11:05,109 --> 02:11:02,239
in is an open source movie

3447
02:11:06,470 --> 02:11:05,119
it's the first of its kind at this scale

3448
02:11:07,510 --> 02:11:06,480
all the footage is being released for

3449
02:11:09,910 --> 02:11:07,520
people to see

3450
02:11:11,830 --> 02:11:09,920
so the dynamic is is that is that the

3451
02:11:13,910 --> 02:11:11,840
real creativity comes with this open

3452
02:11:16,870 --> 02:11:13,920
source process it's there that you get

3453
02:11:19,430 --> 02:11:16,880
victories seven ingredients people are

3454
02:11:21,910 --> 02:11:19,440
operating in a really cooperative mode

3455
02:11:24,069 --> 02:11:21,920
so on and so forth and that's

3456
02:11:25,430 --> 02:11:24,079
tremendously creative

3457
02:11:27,990 --> 02:11:25,440
and then you get companies such as

3458
02:11:29,750 --> 02:11:28,000
microsoft or apple

3459
02:11:31,510 --> 02:11:29,760
or so on that become really successful

3460
02:11:33,669 --> 02:11:31,520
they try to capture it all

3461
02:11:35,669 --> 02:11:33,679
and they're able to do so and once they

3462
02:11:37,270 --> 02:11:35,679
capture it then all the creativity

3463
02:11:39,830 --> 02:11:37,280
drains

3464
02:11:41,189 --> 02:11:39,840
out of it and then you have the open

3465
02:11:44,149 --> 02:11:41,199
source part of it

3466
02:11:44,709 --> 02:11:44,159
kind of sometimes it's just squelched

3467
02:11:46,390 --> 02:11:44,719
okay

3468
02:11:48,950 --> 02:11:46,400
and that capture is permanent but

3469
02:11:51,750 --> 02:11:48,960
sometimes as with linux

3470
02:11:52,310 --> 02:11:51,760
it actually flourishes and become so

3471
02:11:56,790 --> 02:11:52,320
good

3472
02:12:00,709 --> 02:11:56,800
that it beats out the proprietarial

3473
02:12:02,470 --> 02:12:00,719
competition and so as soon as you get

3474
02:12:03,830 --> 02:12:02,480
corporate basically as soon as things

3475
02:12:06,629 --> 02:12:03,840
turn corporate

3476
02:12:08,470 --> 02:12:06,639
then they tend to deviate away from

3477
02:12:10,470 --> 02:12:08,480
these principles that victor

3478
02:12:11,589 --> 02:12:10,480
was talking about what do you define as

3479
02:12:15,910 --> 02:12:11,599
becoming corporate

3480
02:12:18,149 --> 02:12:15,920
you become an entity that becomes profit

3481
02:12:21,589 --> 02:12:18,159
maximizing

3482
02:12:23,669 --> 02:12:21,599
and more interested in your own profit

3483
02:12:25,750 --> 02:12:23,679
instead of vision driven or then vision

3484
02:12:28,149 --> 02:12:25,760
driven and so on and

3485
02:12:29,109 --> 02:12:28,159
and so forth and in a book i recently

3486
02:12:32,390 --> 02:12:29,119
read called

3487
02:12:33,990 --> 02:12:32,400
the master switch by timothy wu

3488
02:12:35,750 --> 02:12:34,000
i believe his name is these are

3489
02:12:37,109 --> 02:12:35,760
well-known books that i'm just kind of

3490
02:12:39,030 --> 02:12:37,119
channeling

3491
02:12:40,629 --> 02:12:39,040
he talks about this dynamic again and

3492
02:12:42,149 --> 02:12:40,639
again and again

3493
02:12:43,669 --> 02:12:42,159
stretching all the way back to the

3494
02:12:46,950 --> 02:12:43,679
telegraph the telephone

3495
02:12:50,870 --> 02:12:46,960
radio television cable television

3496
02:12:53,750 --> 02:12:50,880
all communication

3497
02:12:54,950 --> 02:12:53,760
innovations that began in this open

3498
02:12:57,910 --> 02:12:54,960
source

3499
02:13:00,229 --> 02:12:57,920
fashion with this wonderful diversity

3500
02:13:01,669 --> 02:13:00,239
and then became captured

3501
02:13:03,270 --> 02:13:01,679
in some sense that was a good thing

3502
02:13:05,510 --> 02:13:03,280
because like you don't want more than

3503
02:13:07,350 --> 02:13:05,520
one telephone system frankly

3504
02:13:08,790 --> 02:13:07,360
i mean there's some sense in which one

3505
02:13:15,350 --> 02:13:08,800
big system

3506
02:13:20,069 --> 02:13:18,310
eliminates innovation and in so many of

3507
02:13:23,830 --> 02:13:20,079
these cases once you become a

3508
02:13:26,870 --> 02:13:23,840
monopoly you don't want the next thing

3509
02:13:29,030 --> 02:13:26,880
you definitely don't want the next thing

3510
02:13:30,950 --> 02:13:29,040
and then the final version of this was

3511
02:13:34,310 --> 02:13:30,960
was hollywood

3512
02:13:36,069 --> 02:13:34,320
basically now being captured by a few

3513
02:13:40,229 --> 02:13:36,079
giant studios

3514
02:13:42,229 --> 02:13:40,239
churning out superhero movies and

3515
02:13:43,910 --> 02:13:42,239
but where is the diversity i mean

3516
02:13:45,510 --> 02:13:43,920
actually it does exist it exists with

3517
02:13:47,910 --> 02:13:45,520
the indie films and with

3518
02:13:49,109 --> 02:13:47,920
netflix and so on and so forth but the

3519
02:13:53,109 --> 02:13:49,119
dynamic

3520
02:13:55,910 --> 02:13:53,119
of this open source-y kind of

3521
02:13:57,030 --> 02:13:55,920
process in which those seven principles

3522
02:14:00,069 --> 02:13:57,040
that

3523
02:14:02,390 --> 02:14:00,079
victor talks about are present is

3524
02:14:04,149 --> 02:14:02,400
competing in a sense with these

3525
02:14:07,189 --> 02:14:04,159
leviathans

3526
02:14:09,109 --> 02:14:07,199
which do not have those properties

3527
02:14:10,950 --> 02:14:09,119
and cease to be innovative so i think

3528
02:14:14,149 --> 02:14:10,960
victor is right

3529
02:14:17,830 --> 02:14:14,159
um but that said you can point to

3530
02:14:21,990 --> 02:14:17,840
aspects of hollywood or silicon valley

3531
02:14:27,189 --> 02:14:25,350
are counting against that and even given

3532
02:14:29,510 --> 02:14:27,199
hollywood as it is i think

3533
02:14:31,910 --> 02:14:29,520
if you were to look at the assembly of a

3534
02:14:35,589 --> 02:14:31,920
of whatever team gets assembled for

3535
02:14:37,270 --> 02:14:35,599
any particular uh movie

3536
02:14:38,950 --> 02:14:37,280
with all of those credits at the end of

3537
02:14:41,430 --> 02:14:38,960
the movie

3538
02:14:43,669 --> 02:14:41,440
i mean it is a symphony of cooperation

3539
02:14:45,589 --> 02:14:43,679
and if you're the first grip or the

3540
02:14:47,109 --> 02:14:45,599
cameraman or something like that how you

3541
02:14:49,430 --> 02:14:47,119
come together

3542
02:14:51,589 --> 02:14:49,440
uh for something i'll bet is based on

3543
02:14:52,550 --> 02:14:51,599
your reputation the spirit of generosity

3544
02:14:55,270 --> 02:14:52,560
so and so

3545
02:14:56,629 --> 02:14:55,280
somewhere within the system i think that

3546
02:14:57,350 --> 02:14:56,639
those ingredients that victor was

3547
02:15:01,750 --> 02:14:57,360
talking about

3548
02:15:04,950 --> 02:15:03,350
so what do you say to people who claim

3549
02:15:05,510 --> 02:15:04,960
that there's no such thing as biological

3550
02:15:06,950 --> 02:15:05,520
sex

3551
02:15:08,550 --> 02:15:06,960
for example i sent i don't know if you

3552
02:15:09,910 --> 02:15:08,560
got a chance to look at the video there

3553
02:15:12,149 --> 02:15:09,920
was a professor who said

3554
02:15:13,830 --> 02:15:12,159
there is no such thing as biological sex

3555
02:15:14,629 --> 02:15:13,840
i'm a historian of medicine and i can

3556
02:15:17,430 --> 02:15:14,639
debunk that

3557
02:15:19,189 --> 02:15:17,440
but then he didn't go on to debunk it

3558
02:15:20,870 --> 02:15:19,199
well i think that that's not correct

3559
02:15:23,189 --> 02:15:20,880
that there is such a thing as biological

3560
02:15:26,310 --> 02:15:23,199
sense but where we draw the line

3561
02:15:26,320 --> 02:15:30,390
and where it's been drawn before by

3562
02:15:36,550 --> 02:15:34,310
scientists and doctors is

3563
02:15:38,390 --> 02:15:36,560
pretty shameful and has been revealed to

3564
02:15:41,589 --> 02:15:38,400
be false in

3565
02:15:44,550 --> 02:15:41,599
in retrospect i think that uh anne is in

3566
02:15:46,470 --> 02:15:44,560
my wife ann is in earshot but uh uh

3567
02:15:47,030 --> 02:15:46,480
she'll tell you that back in the 70s

3568
02:15:48,950 --> 02:15:47,040
when

3569
02:15:50,790 --> 02:15:48,960
she was a young woman it was received

3570
02:15:52,149 --> 02:15:50,800
scientific wisdom that women's bodies

3571
02:15:53,669 --> 02:15:52,159
would fall apart if they were to run a

3572
02:15:57,350 --> 02:15:53,679
marathon

3573
02:15:58,470 --> 02:15:57,360
how's that and so what is essentially

3574
02:16:01,430 --> 02:15:58,480
male and female

3575
02:16:03,109 --> 02:16:01,440
i think so often is socially constructed

3576
02:16:07,350 --> 02:16:03,119
for the benefit of

3577
02:16:09,510 --> 02:16:07,360
the powerful members of of um

3578
02:16:11,350 --> 02:16:09,520
of societies and so more often than not

3579
02:16:16,470 --> 02:16:11,360
we have to pay attention to

3580
02:16:21,189 --> 02:16:19,830
aspects so but at the end of the day

3581
02:16:23,750 --> 02:16:21,199
we just have to let the chips follow

3582
02:16:25,189 --> 02:16:23,760
where they where they may

3583
02:16:26,709 --> 02:16:25,199
earlier i was talking about the inuit

3584
02:16:28,229 --> 02:16:26,719
and i think my question could be more

3585
02:16:31,030 --> 02:16:28,239
simply asked

3586
02:16:32,309 --> 02:16:31,040
it's a rudimentary question what is

3587
02:16:34,790 --> 02:16:32,319
adaptive defined as

3588
02:16:36,150 --> 02:16:34,800
is it simply your propensity to

3589
02:16:37,750 --> 02:16:36,160
reproduce is it that you're not

3590
02:16:39,669 --> 02:16:37,760
experiencing pain in your environment

3591
02:16:41,110 --> 02:16:39,679
what is the definition of adaptiveness

3592
02:16:43,190 --> 02:16:41,120
that's such that we can say this is more

3593
02:16:45,270 --> 02:16:43,200
adaptive than this well the narrow

3594
02:16:46,150 --> 02:16:45,280
definition of adaptedness is something

3595
02:16:48,230 --> 02:16:46,160
which

3596
02:16:50,950 --> 02:16:48,240
uh survives and we produce better than

3597
02:16:54,150 --> 02:16:50,960
its alternatives

3598
02:16:57,110 --> 02:16:54,160
right and so that's true for genes

3599
02:16:58,629 --> 02:16:57,120
uh drift is not adaptation if we have a

3600
02:16:59,830 --> 02:16:58,639
case of genetic drift where they have

3601
02:17:02,870 --> 02:16:59,840
two things that

3602
02:17:04,950 --> 02:17:02,880
have the same survival and reproduction

3603
02:17:06,549 --> 02:17:04,960
well chance is going to cause one to

3604
02:17:08,629 --> 02:17:06,559
become more frequent than the other but

3605
02:17:10,150 --> 02:17:08,639
that doesn't count as an adaptation

3606
02:17:11,750 --> 02:17:10,160
so it's not the case that anything that

3607
02:17:13,669 --> 02:17:11,760
evolves is adaptive

3608
02:17:16,230 --> 02:17:13,679
nevertheless if something becomes more

3609
02:17:18,389 --> 02:17:16,240
common based on its properties

3610
02:17:19,669 --> 02:17:18,399
then it counts as adaptive in the

3611
02:17:22,870 --> 02:17:19,679
evolutionary

3612
02:17:25,910 --> 02:17:22,880
sense of the word and so

3613
02:17:26,709 --> 02:17:25,920
that's the definition that is standard

3614
02:17:29,830 --> 02:17:26,719
in

3615
02:17:32,309 --> 02:17:29,840
for genetic evolution and to a

3616
02:17:34,950 --> 02:17:32,319
pretty large degree it also counts not

3617
02:17:37,509 --> 02:17:34,960
just for cultural evolution but also

3618
02:17:39,349 --> 02:17:37,519
um learning if you look at the

3619
02:17:42,549 --> 02:17:39,359
schenerian process of

3620
02:17:43,429 --> 02:17:42,559
of operant conditioning and you you put

3621
02:17:50,230 --> 02:17:43,439
the

3622
02:17:52,709 --> 02:17:50,240
lever and gets some food and

3623
02:17:54,309 --> 02:17:52,719
ends up pressing the lever because that

3624
02:17:57,990 --> 02:17:54,319
was the behavior that

3625
02:17:59,589 --> 02:17:58,000
that delivered rewards more than other

3626
02:18:01,349 --> 02:17:59,599
behaviors what's called the matching

3627
02:18:02,950 --> 02:18:01,359
laws basically a comparison of

3628
02:18:04,230 --> 02:18:02,960
alternative behaviors

3629
02:18:07,750 --> 02:18:04,240
and it's saying the one that's most

3630
02:18:11,349 --> 02:18:07,760
rewarding it gets amped up

3631
02:18:13,429 --> 02:18:11,359
so it's adaptive do you believe in free

3632
02:18:15,910 --> 02:18:13,439
will

3633
02:18:18,150 --> 02:18:15,920
yeah i do i think that on that i side

3634
02:18:20,870 --> 02:18:18,160
with the early daniel bennett

3635
02:18:21,910 --> 02:18:20,880
daniel dennett and i don't agree on many

3636
02:18:25,429 --> 02:18:21,920
things but

3637
02:18:28,709 --> 02:18:25,439
he wrote a book called elbow room

3638
02:18:32,070 --> 02:18:28,719
varieties of free will worth wanting

3639
02:18:36,230 --> 02:18:32,080
that basically uh equates free will with

3640
02:18:42,950 --> 02:18:39,990
to make choices and so i think that's a

3641
02:18:43,509 --> 02:18:42,960
a common sense definition of free will

3642
02:18:45,589 --> 02:18:43,519
that

3643
02:18:47,830 --> 02:18:45,599
both exists and worth wanting but to

3644
02:18:49,669 --> 02:18:47,840
elaborate on that just a bit

3645
02:18:51,349 --> 02:18:49,679
uh you told me earlier about your

3646
02:18:52,469 --> 02:18:51,359
physics background and the theory of

3647
02:18:55,589 --> 02:18:52,479
everything which is

3648
02:18:57,190 --> 02:18:55,599
basically very reductionistic

3649
02:18:58,870 --> 02:18:57,200
concept that knowing only about the

3650
02:19:00,070 --> 02:18:58,880
physical world we might be able to

3651
02:19:01,990 --> 02:19:00,080
explain

3652
02:19:03,110 --> 02:19:02,000
everything and i think that there's

3653
02:19:06,950 --> 02:19:03,120
something

3654
02:19:09,910 --> 02:19:06,960
profoundly false about that and

3655
02:19:11,190 --> 02:19:09,920
which is revealed by evolution and that

3656
02:19:14,469 --> 02:19:11,200
evolution

3657
02:19:17,669 --> 02:19:14,479
is not at all deterministic there's

3658
02:19:21,589 --> 02:19:20,230
not probabilistic but uh basically

3659
02:19:26,230 --> 02:19:21,599
evolution

3660
02:19:30,469 --> 02:19:26,240
um results in in

3661
02:19:36,629 --> 02:19:34,070
they exist by virtue of of their

3662
02:19:39,190 --> 02:19:36,639
adaptedness

3663
02:19:40,790 --> 02:19:39,200
and and you can't predict them on the

3664
02:19:42,230 --> 02:19:40,800
basis of their physical

3665
02:19:44,790 --> 02:19:42,240
properties there's this concept of

3666
02:19:47,110 --> 02:19:44,800
downward causation

3667
02:19:49,270 --> 02:19:47,120
that when something evolves on the basis

3668
02:19:55,270 --> 02:19:49,280
of

3669
02:19:56,950 --> 02:19:55,280
the parts permitted it to happen but

3670
02:19:58,550 --> 02:19:56,960
they didn't cause it to happen as long

3671
02:20:00,070 --> 02:19:58,560
as the physical material results in

3672
02:20:02,070 --> 02:20:00,080
heritable variation

3673
02:20:03,670 --> 02:20:02,080
then it's the environmental forces which

3674
02:20:06,950 --> 02:20:03,680
cause something to be

3675
02:20:09,270 --> 02:20:06,960
brought into being and so

3676
02:20:10,790 --> 02:20:09,280
the theory of everything has to include

3677
02:20:12,389 --> 02:20:10,800
evolutionary

3678
02:20:14,230 --> 02:20:12,399
theory and there's a large portion of

3679
02:20:15,670 --> 02:20:14,240
evolutionary theory which is amazingly

3680
02:20:18,870 --> 02:20:15,680
detached from

3681
02:20:20,389 --> 02:20:18,880
physical processes at all

3682
02:20:23,030 --> 02:20:20,399
i mean everything that evolves has a

3683
02:20:25,270 --> 02:20:23,040
physical process but that physical

3684
02:20:27,110 --> 02:20:25,280
process did not determine

3685
02:20:28,550 --> 02:20:27,120
what he wanted all it provided was the

3686
02:20:31,670 --> 02:20:28,560
raw material of

3687
02:20:33,670 --> 02:20:31,680
heritable variation and so

3688
02:20:35,030 --> 02:20:33,680
all of that i think is really provides a

3689
02:20:38,150 --> 02:20:35,040
lot of christopher

3690
02:20:41,349 --> 02:20:38,160
for thinking about uh free will

3691
02:20:41,990 --> 02:20:41,359
okay now my last question this is just

3692
02:20:43,270 --> 02:20:42,000
one that i've

3693
02:20:45,190 --> 02:20:43,280
been thinking about my last questions

3694
02:20:49,110 --> 02:20:45,200
are killers i want to say my last

3695
02:20:53,830 --> 02:20:52,469
i'm a scientist so i i'm a scientist

3696
02:20:55,830 --> 02:20:53,840
at heart but i always like to critique

3697
02:20:58,630 --> 02:20:55,840
and critique critique so i was thinking

3698
02:21:00,070 --> 02:20:58,640
i was thinking i have this document of

3699
02:21:01,670 --> 02:21:00,080
theories that i feel like undermine

3700
02:21:03,349 --> 02:21:01,680
themselves and post-modernism is one of

3701
02:21:04,469 --> 02:21:03,359
them because it says there are no truths

3702
02:21:05,590 --> 02:21:04,479
and therefore any

3703
02:21:07,429 --> 02:21:05,600
claims to truth is power

3704
02:21:08,550 --> 02:21:07,439
self-contradictory but yeah exactly

3705
02:21:11,190 --> 02:21:08,560
because that's

3706
02:21:12,630 --> 02:21:11,200
a truth that you've claimed the power

3707
02:21:13,190 --> 02:21:12,640
truth the proud power narrative in other

3708
02:21:14,870 --> 02:21:13,200
words

3709
02:21:16,790 --> 02:21:14,880
okay then i was thinking about evolution

3710
02:21:18,870 --> 02:21:16,800
the evolution is interesting because

3711
02:21:23,270 --> 02:21:18,880
in a sense it can undermine itself and

3712
02:21:26,469 --> 02:21:26,150
we're selected not for our interaction

3713
02:21:29,110 --> 02:21:26,479
with

3714
02:21:30,150 --> 02:21:29,120
reality as such or the objective world

3715
02:21:33,590 --> 02:21:30,160
but we're selected

3716
02:21:35,750 --> 02:21:33,600
for what allows us to reproduce and that

3717
02:21:37,110 --> 02:21:35,760
may not necessarily match up to reality

3718
02:21:38,870 --> 02:21:37,120
so another philosopher and i don't

3719
02:21:41,270 --> 02:21:38,880
remember his name said that even

3720
02:21:42,710 --> 02:21:41,280
this world that we think is solid is we

3721
02:21:45,190 --> 02:21:42,720
should think of it more like

3722
02:21:46,230 --> 02:21:45,200
a computer icon that says that looks

3723
02:21:48,150 --> 02:21:46,240
like

3724
02:21:50,150 --> 02:21:48,160
a mail and then we don't confuse that

3725
02:21:51,190 --> 02:21:50,160
mail icon with the mail itself that's a

3726
02:21:54,790 --> 02:21:51,200
user interface

3727
02:21:55,750 --> 02:21:54,800
because that's all the evolution

3728
02:21:57,110 --> 02:21:55,760
provides you is

3729
02:21:58,309 --> 02:21:57,120
the ability to interact with the world

3730
02:22:00,230 --> 02:21:58,319
such that you get what you want and

3731
02:22:02,950 --> 02:22:00,240
hopefully that's something like survival

3732
02:22:04,950 --> 02:22:02,960
okay so then that means that we don't

3733
02:22:08,389 --> 02:22:04,960
we're not selected necessarily

3734
02:22:10,710 --> 02:22:08,399
for our relationship with reality

3735
02:22:12,710 --> 02:22:10,720
which means that whatever we think of as

3736
02:22:15,830 --> 02:22:12,720
real might not necessarily be real

3737
02:22:17,750 --> 02:22:15,840
including the theory of evolution so if

3738
02:22:19,590 --> 02:22:17,760
the theory of evolution is true

3739
02:22:21,349 --> 02:22:19,600
which obviously like i i believe you

3740
02:22:23,750 --> 02:22:21,359
believe i would

3741
02:22:25,270 --> 02:22:23,760
then we can use it to undermine itself

3742
02:22:26,389 --> 02:22:25,280
by saying the theory of evolution would

3743
02:22:28,469 --> 02:22:26,399
say that we don't

3744
02:22:29,590 --> 02:22:28,479
we're not selected to match with reality

3745
02:22:31,750 --> 02:22:29,600
including

3746
02:22:32,870 --> 02:22:31,760
our own theory of evolution and i want

3747
02:22:34,070 --> 02:22:32,880
to know what you think of that because

3748
02:22:35,750 --> 02:22:34,080
this is just something i thought about

3749
02:22:37,429 --> 02:22:35,760
for five minutes well that line of

3750
02:22:39,990 --> 02:22:37,439
reasoning would undermine

3751
02:22:46,950 --> 02:22:40,000
any theory so uh but i think the the

3752
02:22:53,110 --> 02:22:49,990
is that you're right what we

3753
02:22:54,870 --> 02:22:53,120
perceive as reality has is based on its

3754
02:22:57,349 --> 02:22:54,880
survival value

3755
02:23:02,830 --> 02:22:57,359
not on a direct apprehension of of

3756
02:23:06,870 --> 02:23:04,070
fortunately

3757
02:23:08,070 --> 02:23:06,880
i would qualify that a bit to say that

3758
02:23:10,870 --> 02:23:08,080
that

3759
02:23:13,590 --> 02:23:10,880
the relationship between objective

3760
02:23:16,230 --> 02:23:13,600
reality and survival value

3761
02:23:16,830 --> 02:23:16,240
is sometimes positive and sometimes

3762
02:23:19,349 --> 02:23:16,840
negative

3763
02:23:20,950 --> 02:23:19,359
sometimes knowing the world as it really

3764
02:23:23,270 --> 02:23:20,960
is

3765
02:23:24,389 --> 02:23:23,280
helps us survive in that world and

3766
02:23:26,309 --> 02:23:24,399
sometimes

3767
02:23:27,510 --> 02:23:26,319
flagrant departures from reality helps

3768
02:23:28,790 --> 02:23:27,520
us survive

3769
02:23:31,190 --> 02:23:28,800
in the world what that means is that

3770
02:23:32,950 --> 02:23:31,200
we're able to function in both modes

3771
02:23:34,309 --> 02:23:32,960
that we actually have a module you might

3772
02:23:36,510 --> 02:23:34,319
say

3773
02:23:40,710 --> 02:23:36,520
we have ways of thinking that that are

3774
02:23:47,910 --> 02:23:44,830
and that's proto-religious

3775
02:23:50,230 --> 02:23:47,920
uh let's put it to bitter cooler so that

3776
02:23:54,150 --> 02:23:50,240
we do have a capacity to function as

3777
02:23:57,510 --> 02:23:54,160
in scientific objective reasoning

3778
02:23:59,110 --> 02:23:57,520
modes to to decide upon

3779
02:24:01,910 --> 02:23:59,120
what's out there and then science is an

3780
02:24:05,030 --> 02:24:01,920
elaboration of that but the

3781
02:24:06,550 --> 02:24:05,040
the point to make is that is that even

3782
02:24:08,790 --> 02:24:06,560
if we didn't evolve to

3783
02:24:10,790 --> 02:24:08,800
apprehend reality luckily we have a

3784
02:24:11,830 --> 02:24:10,800
procedure which we call the scientific

3785
02:24:15,429 --> 02:24:11,840
method

3786
02:24:17,670 --> 02:24:15,439
which actually is capable of

3787
02:24:18,870 --> 02:24:17,680
doing that it doesn't come too naturally

3788
02:24:20,630 --> 02:24:18,880
for us

3789
02:24:22,469 --> 02:24:20,640
and it has to be a social process it's

3790
02:24:24,389 --> 02:24:22,479
not an individual process

3791
02:24:26,830 --> 02:24:24,399
but are we lucky that there's a social

3792
02:24:28,230 --> 02:24:26,840
process that enables us to actually

3793
02:24:31,750 --> 02:24:28,240
determine

3794
02:24:38,630 --> 02:24:36,070
and that's why we need to we need to

3795
02:24:40,150 --> 02:24:38,640
protect science and make it the

3796
02:24:42,389 --> 02:24:40,160
centerpiece of what we do

3797
02:24:44,469 --> 02:24:42,399
in a modern world because more and more

3798
02:24:46,950 --> 02:24:44,479
our survival does depend on knowing

3799
02:24:50,389 --> 02:24:46,960
the world as it really is so we need

3800
02:25:00,150 --> 02:24:50,399
science more than we ever did before

3801
02:25:04,150 --> 02:25:02,550
i think there's a pattern with this and

3802
02:25:06,950 --> 02:25:04,160
you're familiar with daniel bennett's

3803
02:25:08,710 --> 02:25:06,960
second endosymbiotic revolution right

3804
02:25:12,309 --> 02:25:08,720
where we get memes

3805
02:25:14,710 --> 02:25:12,319
yeah right so what struck me

3806
02:25:16,309 --> 02:25:14,720
in when i was i studied both my major in

3807
02:25:18,870 --> 02:25:16,319
history and biology

3808
02:25:20,790 --> 02:25:18,880
minored in philosophy and what struck me

3809
02:25:25,429 --> 02:25:20,800
was so many similarities between

3810
02:25:28,790 --> 02:25:25,439
these disciplines one of which was

3811
02:25:32,150 --> 02:25:28,800
in biops just starting with

3812
02:25:35,830 --> 02:25:32,160
prokaryotes you have these vessels

3813
02:25:37,670 --> 02:25:35,840
that have a coat and that coat

3814
02:25:38,950 --> 02:25:37,680
you know is the inflates or helps the

3815
02:25:39,590 --> 02:25:38,960
interface between themselves and the

3816
02:25:41,830 --> 02:25:39,600
environment

3817
02:25:43,110 --> 02:25:41,840
navigates them through life the ones

3818
02:25:46,150 --> 02:25:43,120
that make it

3819
02:25:49,270 --> 02:25:46,160
continue ones that die die

3820
02:25:50,550 --> 02:25:49,280
right then miracle occurs and this is

3821
02:25:51,110 --> 02:25:50,560
going really well and then a miracle

3822
02:25:53,750 --> 02:25:51,120
occurs

3823
02:25:55,270 --> 02:25:53,760
first endosymbiotic revolution they're

3824
02:25:58,309 --> 02:25:55,280
trapped together as one

3825
02:26:01,910 --> 02:25:58,319
and in being trapped they externalize

3826
02:26:03,910 --> 02:26:01,920
their internal codes into a new system

3827
02:26:05,510 --> 02:26:03,920
still within the boundary of the the new

3828
02:26:08,230 --> 02:26:05,520
wall which is called that

3829
02:26:08,710 --> 02:26:08,240
the new wall and this new externalized

3830
02:26:12,469 --> 02:26:08,720
code

3831
02:26:16,630 --> 02:26:12,479
becomes the interface or let's say

3832
02:26:18,070 --> 02:26:16,640
tailors the interface of the new wall

3833
02:26:20,469 --> 02:26:18,080
and runs you know what is kind of the

3834
02:26:23,270 --> 02:26:20,479
face of their evolution

3835
02:26:27,750 --> 02:26:23,280
to be i know i'm being a bit yeah you

3836
02:26:33,670 --> 02:26:31,030
the next question i had was

3837
02:26:35,349 --> 02:26:33,680
okay does the pattern contain do they

3838
02:26:36,790 --> 02:26:35,359
gather together

3839
02:26:39,910 --> 02:26:36,800
a bunch of eukaryotic cells do they

3840
02:26:41,510 --> 02:26:39,920
gather together externalize their code

3841
02:26:43,270 --> 02:26:41,520
and that code changes the interface of

3842
02:26:44,870 --> 02:26:43,280
that new wall

3843
02:26:47,110 --> 02:26:44,880
and thus governs their evolution in that

3844
02:26:48,710 --> 02:26:47,120
hierarchy and of course this is daniel

3845
02:26:51,830 --> 02:26:48,720
then it's memes

3846
02:26:53,349 --> 02:26:51,840
right uh i mean daniel dada i don't want

3847
02:26:55,990 --> 02:26:53,359
to disparage him but but

3848
02:26:57,750 --> 02:26:56,000
i mean this has a whole literature that

3849
02:26:59,590 --> 02:26:57,760
doesn't depend on daniel dennett

3850
02:27:05,510 --> 02:26:59,600
absolutely major transitions of

3851
02:27:09,510 --> 02:27:07,590
so anyhow i'm not sure i haven't read

3852
02:27:12,710 --> 02:27:09,520
dan's take on it but uh

3853
02:27:18,790 --> 02:27:12,720
but whatever i mean listen we say memes

3854
02:27:25,270 --> 02:27:21,830
do memes gather together

3855
02:27:27,349 --> 02:27:25,280
externalize their code

3856
02:27:29,030 --> 02:27:27,359
and then have that code govern some

3857
02:27:31,270 --> 02:27:29,040
larger interface

3858
02:27:32,550 --> 02:27:31,280
which governs their evolution my

3859
02:27:35,750 --> 02:27:32,560
question to you is

3860
02:27:37,270 --> 02:27:35,760
is that what history is that we come up

3861
02:27:40,469 --> 02:27:37,280
with the law

3862
02:27:41,110 --> 02:27:40,479
or written text and this externalized

3863
02:27:44,230 --> 02:27:41,120
text

3864
02:27:46,309 --> 02:27:44,240
governs our evolutions and thus

3865
02:27:47,270 --> 02:27:46,319
the evolution of our of our first our

3866
02:27:51,830 --> 02:27:47,280
ideas

3867
02:27:55,190 --> 02:27:51,840
then of our gen our dna then of our rna

3868
02:27:58,150 --> 02:27:55,200
and does that code then take on new life

3869
02:27:59,270 --> 02:27:58,160
and become for example computer code

3870
02:28:02,710 --> 02:27:59,280
which

3871
02:28:04,550 --> 02:28:02,720
acting upon itself ever trying this is

3872
02:28:06,389 --> 02:28:04,560
the new push getting it to evolve upon

3873
02:28:08,790 --> 02:28:06,399
itself

3874
02:28:10,230 --> 02:28:08,800
is this going to be the next level of

3875
02:28:12,550 --> 02:28:10,240
consciousness

3876
02:28:13,590 --> 02:28:12,560
the next code that is externalized from

3877
02:28:16,870 --> 02:28:13,600
us that

3878
02:28:19,030 --> 02:28:16,880
governs our lives our evolution and that

3879
02:28:19,910 --> 02:28:19,040
computers in this way your code is alive

3880
02:28:23,429 --> 02:28:19,920
follows this

3881
02:28:25,510 --> 02:28:23,439
matryoshka russian nesting gold trend

3882
02:28:26,550 --> 02:28:25,520
well that's my set of questions okay

3883
02:28:29,670 --> 02:28:26,560
well i mean

3884
02:28:30,710 --> 02:28:29,680
broadly uh yes to that last one believe

3885
02:28:34,710 --> 02:28:30,720
it or not

3886
02:28:38,790 --> 02:28:34,720
and uh i think quite a lot about that

3887
02:28:41,590 --> 02:28:38,800
and uh so i think that you're

3888
02:28:42,469 --> 02:28:41,600
traveling in a good direction one of my

3889
02:28:45,590 --> 02:28:42,479
projects

3890
02:28:47,349 --> 02:28:45,600
uh with uh

3891
02:28:49,110 --> 02:28:47,359
funded by one of the templeton

3892
02:28:51,990 --> 02:28:49,120
foundations is to actually

3893
02:28:52,950 --> 02:28:52,000
create to first do interviews and then

3894
02:28:56,309 --> 02:28:52,960
to

3895
02:28:58,150 --> 02:28:56,319
create a documentary series on

3896
02:29:00,469 --> 02:28:58,160
major transitions from the origins of

3897
02:29:02,870 --> 02:29:00,479
life to the internet age

3898
02:29:04,389 --> 02:29:02,880
so it's really that story that you were

3899
02:29:07,590 --> 02:29:04,399
saying that we're

3900
02:29:10,790 --> 02:29:07,600
documenting by interviewing experts

3901
02:29:13,190 --> 02:29:10,800
and i'm working with a documentary

3902
02:29:15,510 --> 02:29:13,200
filmmaker named ellen honik

3903
02:29:17,429 --> 02:29:15,520
who has really immersed himself in this

3904
02:29:19,190 --> 02:29:17,439
and so he's achieved

3905
02:29:22,790 --> 02:29:19,200
expert's level of knowledge with a lot

3906
02:29:25,590 --> 02:29:22,800
of creative input

3907
02:29:26,950 --> 02:29:25,600
on his own and we're interviewing people

3908
02:29:31,030 --> 02:29:26,960
like

3909
02:29:32,630 --> 02:29:31,040
a spot murray athena octopus who studies

3910
02:29:34,389 --> 02:29:32,640
cancer from an

3911
02:29:36,389 --> 02:29:34,399
evolutionary perspective rich michoud

3912
02:29:37,190 --> 02:29:36,399
who's contributed to this all the way up

3913
02:29:41,030 --> 02:29:37,200
to

3914
02:29:44,550 --> 02:29:41,040
internet folks like tim o'reilly and and

3915
02:29:47,590 --> 02:29:44,560
and and the like as to how

3916
02:29:50,150 --> 02:29:47,600
there's uh we're at the point now where

3917
02:29:51,429 --> 02:29:50,160
we need to have a the final transition

3918
02:29:52,950 --> 02:29:51,439
up to a global

3919
02:29:54,950 --> 02:29:52,960
consciousness if you've read my book

3920
02:29:57,990 --> 02:29:54,960
this year of life you know that i

3921
02:30:00,150 --> 02:29:58,000
accurate with pierre gel de chardin his

3922
02:30:03,590 --> 02:30:00,160
concept of the amiga point

3923
02:30:05,030 --> 02:30:03,600
um and and so on so it sounds like

3924
02:30:07,190 --> 02:30:05,040
science fiction

3925
02:30:09,190 --> 02:30:07,200
um and these transitions are very much

3926
02:30:12,550 --> 02:30:09,200
transitions of information

3927
02:30:14,950 --> 02:30:12,560
as you say so um

3928
02:30:16,309 --> 02:30:14,960
and it ends up with a symbiosis that's

3929
02:30:17,670 --> 02:30:16,319
going to be thoroughly entwined with

3930
02:30:19,910 --> 02:30:17,680
technology

3931
02:30:22,230 --> 02:30:19,920
and so on i mean the internet will be

3932
02:30:23,910 --> 02:30:22,240
the global nervous system but

3933
02:30:25,670 --> 02:30:23,920
it does not self-organize there's one

3934
02:30:28,790 --> 02:30:25,680
point that needs to be made

3935
02:30:31,110 --> 02:30:28,800
it's not happening no it cannot it has

3936
02:30:33,349 --> 02:30:31,120
to be guided by a selection process

3937
02:30:35,590 --> 02:30:33,359
and it's here that we have to be

3938
02:30:38,630 --> 02:30:35,600
targeting the global good

3939
02:30:40,150 --> 02:30:38,640
uh making that the target of selection

3940
02:30:41,670 --> 02:30:40,160
and if we don't do that then it won't

3941
02:30:43,910 --> 02:30:41,680
happen for sure

3942
02:30:46,870 --> 02:30:43,920
so this is where the idea of managing

3943
02:30:50,550 --> 02:30:46,880
cultural evolution what does that mean

3944
02:30:52,309 --> 02:30:50,560
it means managing all three components

3945
02:30:53,429 --> 02:30:52,319
of an evolutionary process those three

3946
02:30:56,950 --> 02:30:53,439
components are

3947
02:30:58,950 --> 02:30:56,960
selection variation and replication

3948
02:31:02,389 --> 02:30:58,960
what does it mean to manage them it

3949
02:31:05,670 --> 02:31:04,230
decide the target of selection the

3950
02:31:08,790 --> 02:31:05,680
global good

3951
02:31:12,550 --> 02:31:08,800
orient variation around the target

3952
02:31:14,070 --> 02:31:12,560
and then replicate best practices

3953
02:31:15,910 --> 02:31:14,080
that's what needs to be done all with

3954
02:31:19,190 --> 02:31:15,920
the global good uh

3955
02:31:19,910 --> 02:31:19,200
in mind and nothing less will do so it's

3956
02:31:22,070 --> 02:31:19,920
uh

3957
02:31:23,910 --> 02:31:22,080
pretty amazing that you could actually

3958
02:31:27,270 --> 02:31:23,920
make a strong statement like that and

3959
02:31:30,150 --> 02:31:27,280
yeah i thought about it in my undergrad

3960
02:31:31,110 --> 02:31:30,160
um i discovered dennett i don't know if

3961
02:31:33,590 --> 02:31:31,120
you'll believe me

3962
02:31:35,750 --> 02:31:33,600
afterwards and when i found about your

3963
02:31:39,110 --> 02:31:35,760
powdered light revolution institute

3964
02:31:41,429 --> 02:31:39,120
i was very very excited

3965
02:31:42,950 --> 02:31:41,439
to speak well that's that's awesome and

3966
02:31:46,389 --> 02:31:42,960
i hope that you can get involved

3967
02:31:47,990 --> 02:31:46,399
and so we'll uh well what i'm

3968
02:31:52,630 --> 02:31:48,000
one of the things i'm trying to do is

3969
02:31:57,110 --> 02:31:55,830
literally build a movement which is uh

3970
02:31:59,990 --> 02:31:57,120
you're building an army

3971
02:32:00,550 --> 02:32:00,000
and i i love it well not yet influx not

3972
02:32:03,270 --> 02:32:00,560
yet but

3973
02:32:04,309 --> 02:32:03,280
uh but hopefully and has the same kind

3974
02:32:07,030 --> 02:32:04,319
of

3975
02:32:07,750 --> 02:32:07,040
energy as a political movement but with

3976
02:32:10,870 --> 02:32:07,760
uh

3977
02:32:12,230 --> 02:32:10,880
worldview rather than a political

3978
02:32:14,870 --> 02:32:12,240
ideology